to think that the minimum wage should be higher in London

[bottlenecker]

I really do not understand how the national minimum wage can possibly be the same in London as the rest of the country. How on earth can anyone live on that minimum wage?

Julia Ideally, we'd all live in a world where everyone got fair wages, everyone could afford their dream house & dream car but not everyone can.

We are not talking about dream housing here, we are talking about people who are on minimum wage and often working very odd hours when trains aren't running.

P.s. You talk about temping, many minimum wage jobs ARE temporary or zero hours contracts.

Bottlenecker, you do realise what you've just done don't you? You've picked holes in my argument by saying that I haven't picked a representative borough in London and then compared it to the average of the whole of Wales as if that makes your point more valid? If you want to look at poorer areas try Rhondda Cynon Taf, Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent.

Are you arguing that people who live in areas of multiple deprivation shouldn't get nmw but people in London should?

Bump

No. if you scroll down there is an individual list of each county in Wales.

Against which one are you comparing it? Wales like other places has lots of places which are better off and a number of places which are deprived.

Are you arguing that all people in London should get an increased nmw but those outside of London shouldn't?

I was simply replying to the claim that council tax was cheaper in London and that it somehow offset the more expensive housing costs but this is not the case.

My friend works as a street cleaner (litter picker) in London. He works for an agency. The local council pay this agency £12.50 for every hour he works. They then pay my friend £7.50 per hour so quite a bit above minimum wage although full hours are not available.
With various benefits (HB, WTC, CTC etc.) He effectively gets £15 for every hour he works. It's seems like the state is paying £20 per hour for him to pick up litter. Crazy.
If his wages rose he would lose some or all of these benefits it would make no difference to his life style really unless he could get more hours, which he can't at the moment but it would be a bigger incentive to do so. He is sometimes offered an extra 3 hour shift on a Saturday which he does but wonders if it is worth it as he has a 45 min each way commute costing an hours pay and it can effect his benefit. He definitely couldn't do it if he had to commute from outside London.

However his brother works with him, same pay, same hours. He is a single man with no children. He is not entitled to WTC, HB etc. So is effectively doing exactly the same job next to his brother for half the income. The only place he can afford to live is a 6 x 5 room in an absolutely disgusting slum of a house shared with ten other people with one bathroom. People like him need a higher wage but he is on £7.50 per hour and sadly I think even the proposed 'living wage' would not benefit him.

I don't know what to suggest as a solution. Just a couple peoples circumstances that I was thinking about and wanted to share.

Bottlenecker, I disagree and have tried to compare a poorer area of London with a poorer part of Wales. I've just compared band E council taxes where I live and Tower Hamlets. Mine is 1802.47, TH is 1447.74. That's 354.73 cheaper or nearly a 1 a day.

Again, i am not arguing that people in London don't struggle or find it difficult, just that they shouldn't exclusively be giving an increase in the nmw, it should be across the UK.

So if people doing jobs on nmw can't afford to live in London then how are those jobs getting done?

"MetheMon 31-Mar-14 20:31:06

Are you saying that if a person doesn't clear enough glasses or wipe enough backsides in London then whole economy is going to suffer? Wow! Who knew you guys were that important.. I'm impressed!"

What a patronising pompous post.
yes people who clean bums and collect glasses are important.
op, sounds sensible to me. Public sector wages often have a london weighting reflecting the fact that working and living in london is more expensive. Market forces have already been fiddled with in the very concept of a nmw.

Bump
I understand what you are saying regarding lack of jobs. Butlooking at the info tower hamlets is absolutely the cheapest of the poorer areas. I don't think there is a huge difference tbh. And the most expensive council tax boroughs in poorer areas of London are actually more expensive than poorer areas of in Wales.

Whatyhatcoming
People are renting converted sheds to live in and renting rooms and mutlisharing of single rooms. Overcrowding in poorer areas and living conditions are horrendous and getting worse.
It doesn't negate problems in other parts of the country but it is more acute in London.

It's massively more expensive to live and work there
no it is not in fact compared to rural areas it is probably cheaper - the fares are lower, utilities and food cost the same, you do not need to drive, and expensive rents are subsidised by HB.

Do people disagree with London weighting in general then? Or just for those at the bottom of the wage pile.

Nigelladealer
People on nmw do not automatically get hb.

I agree with London weighting and I fully agree that the nmw should be increased just not exclusively in London. Already the living wage is set at a higher level in London than everywhere else.

I just find it very hard to deal with an argument for rise in the nmw in London when in the Welsh Valleys we have the highest levels of child poverty, we are seeing a return of rickets and scurvy because of food poverty, jobs are really hard to get and good jobs with decent pay is rare. Household expenditure on council tax, transport and utilities is higher and there are more people who are not in education, employment or training.

I love where I live but it has many failings and rise in the nmw would be a shot in the arm.

no bottlenecker they do not get it automatically, they have to apply for it.

Actually I can think of a bloody good reason. London isn't an island. It's been a few years since I studied this, but possible outcomes:

• London becomes more expensive, firms move out. Maybe we level things out but it depends if they move within UK or abroad. If UK, there could be a net benefit, but depending on the firm I wouldn't bet on it. Scottish Independence compounds this for financial firms with an Edinburgh presence.

• London becomes more expensive, firms suck it up. Housing bubble. In 40 years time, 'poorer' Londoners own houses that high earning northerners could never hope to own.

It can be hard for natives, but I wonder how many people move to London? I know a fair few who move and tell me their fantastic salaries, at which point I ask about their rented flat an house from work and bemoan the upkeep on my detached house 15 minutes from the city centre.... If there is a London premium, it shouldn't be sufficient to induce lower waged workers to move in, because that is no good for the rest of the UK.

Buggersmuddle

1. Firms seem to be able to cope with London weighting for all other employees at the moment without feeling the need to move out.
2. The evidence I linked to previously on this thread suggests that it would not have much effect on firms moving or jobs going.
3. The problem is that low paid workers are moving out in droves at the moment not that people will move in if the MNW goes up.
4. Low paid workers are still never going to be able to afford to buy in London and therefore will not be taking their capital from their house moving to "Newcastle"
5. London is not an island but it is nationally recognised amongst employers to be much more expensive to live in and therefore London weighting was introduced to counteract the cost of living. It's just one group (the poorest) don't benefit from this.

Yes, London weightng is common in many jobs. I don't understand why people on the lowest salary should be the ones exempt from yhis

I am so sick of all the London bashing that goes on on MN. If I named anywhere else in the UK and said that I can't imagine anywhere worse to live, it's dirty/noisy/unfriendly/everyone who lives there think they're special etc, I'd rightly get flamed but people say it about London all the time and we're supposed to just suck it up.
And all this "well just leave" business is just stupid. a) it's not that easy and b) I don't want to leave. I've lived here for nearly 25 years, my kids have been raised here, have friends here and are settled at school. My friends are here and, believe it or not, where I live is really friendly with a great sense of community.
I know that I'm very lucky as DH and I bought a house 16 years ago which tripled in price in 5 years which allowed us to buy the house we're in now. Despite us both working full time and earning a decent salary, we'd struggle to buy a 1 bed flat now.
I'm not an economist so can't comment in an educated way about the pros and cons of having a higher NMW but it can't be a good thing that a huge proportion of the population are being priced out of the capital.
Also, we have the most expensive rail system in Europe with many people paying thousands of pounds for a season ticket so I can see it getting to a stage when people can't afford to commute either.

And btw, the comment about "wiping enough bums" is fucking offensive to all the nurses, care assistants and nursery workers out there. I'm a nurse and I've wiped a fair few bums in my time. You may need your bum wiping one day.

I know that I'm very lucky as DH and I bought a house 16 years ago which tripled in price in 5 years which allowed us to buy the house we're in now.

You see Andy some of us 8th/12th/20th/whatever generation Londoners haven't been so 'lucky'. When one can't buy a family home in one's home city, the bad points loom larger.

London is unrecognisable from even 20 years ago and quite honestly, as a life-long Londoner, with nowhere else to call home, I will slag it off as and when I fancy it, thanks.

You sound like a lottery-winner, narikly defending gambling TBH

I feel the same fideline, priced out of my home city. There are plenty of Londoners who have been more or less forced out.