To serve kosher meat just to spite them?

[flaquark]

I think I might be being a tad silly but..

A few of DH's work collegues are coming over for sunday dinner (with their families) tomorrow. We did all the making sure about veggies and allergies and all that.
I got a text from one of them saying that they were looking forward to coming and all that and they added on the end that could we not serve any kosher meat tomorrow as they dont agree with it.
Both me and DH dont keep kosher, at all, never have.

For some reason the text really pissed me off, and I really want to go and buy different meat that is all kosher.

I'm being ridiculous aren't I?

No you can ask. But unless you also ask if it is meat from animals treated badly in other ways (although I'm not convinced kosher is any crueler myself) then I will think you are anti Semitic.

Well we'll have to disagree there. As has been pointed out there are bodies who probably know more about it than you who think it's crueler.

And yes I am extremely careful of the provenance of meat I eat.

Oh and for sake of clarity are my Jewish friends who avoid Kosher meat for the same reason also anti-semitic? I don't think you addressed that point.

I think perhaps that is going a bit far.

If I go to dinner with someone who I know always buys value chicken, or if I buy a takeaway curry or a Chinese, or if I am away on business and I am given an evening meal, I will go vegetarian. That's because I know there is a high probability that the meat will be unacceptable to me. I am not sufficiently rigorous to ask everyone who feeds me- if I got to that stage the only rational thing to do would be to go vegetarian. But I do care enough to avoid the obvious places. I don't buy New Zealand lamb, for instance, because its halal.

Now in this case I would not be so rude and insensitive, I would either have thought about it in time and said I was a vegetarian, or I would have put up with it for once. It's only one meal, and it is so easy for people to feel hurt and offended if you seem to be hostile to their faith, even if your reasons have nothing to do with faith. But if you are going to a household which follows a faith which you know has rules around animal slaughter, it's not a hostile or even a personal thing to bear that in mind.

I am an atheist. It's interesting that if I were a Muslim I doubt anyone would be offended because I didn't want to eat according to Jewish ritual. It's as if my ethics and beliefs are second-class because they are not faith-based.

Jews who practise religion and keep kosher are called Orthodox, and those that don't and do not keep kosher are Reformists,
Caitlin17 maybe it is my circles of friends and family, but I am yet to meet a Jewish person who would refuse a kosher meal in a kosher household, object fellow Orthodox Jews way of life, keeping kosher, eating kosher meat, separating milk from meat etc.

Eh? Orthodox, Reform and Liberal Jews all practise religion and most of them keep kosher. It's secular Jews who don't (though many, like me, won't eat pork or shellfish).

Does seem a bit harsh to say that reform Jews don't practice religion

I think it's insensitive at the very least because it's tied to religion. Vegetarianism can be religion based, but often isn't.

If you're worried about battery farmed chicken or whatever then say you're vegetarian-anything else risks offence. I am fussy about my meat and try to never eat any that I haven't bought myself because I don't know where it's from, so I always ask for a veg option. If none is offered and it would be obvious to just eat veg eg it's a roast then I do eat the meat. Good manners means I must. people work hard to produce a meal and the meat is already bought and cooked.

I think the 'we don't agree with kosher' was very bad manners. Who asked them for an opinion? Just a simple 'vegetarian for us please' well in advance suffices.

I haven't read all the thread, just the first and last page. I am agreeing with the op and I would be annoyed with the text. If the person had said btw, just a reminder that i'm vegetarian/have an allergy/only eat halal or whatever, that would be fine, but to say you don't want to eat kosher just because you don't agree with it is a bit of a nonsense I think and rude. If they are so against it why did they decide to come round in the first place if they thought food might be an issue.

You may be careful but this person wasn't they only cared about kosher. I don't know how to say this more clearly. Can you genuinely not see that saying 'I only eat high quality meat that has been well kept and humanely killed' is different to saying 'no kosher' but not saying no to cheap or imported meat?

If they only avoid kosher but eat cheap, imported, battery meat the yes.

Can you genuinely not see that saying 'I only eat high quality meat that has been well kept and humanely killed' is different to saying 'no kosher' but not saying no to cheap or imported meat?

Its is absolutely right. I agree with that. If you only avoid Kosher and Halal then you are deciding based on religious practice, not animal welfare.

My point is slightly different. We are used (most of us!) to respecting diet rules that come from faith. We don't normally criticise someone for following them. And if they clash, we dont say a muslim is being anti-semitic for not following jewish rules; we say they are being muslim.

Because I dont have a faith, I sometimes feel ppl think I am being precious to have views on what I eat. They would respect them if I said it was religion. Because it's not, they feel more free to criticise me, especially if it happens that my views and theirs clash.

It's sort of understandable. We know that in modern Britain, the point of food rules is not that they are logical: they may have been completely sensible back in the day, but they are not needed now. Ppl follow them for reasons that are nothing to do with modern food hygiene: they follow them for reasons of faith. So criticising those views is kind of missing the point. I do get that- but as I say, I do feel that the views and ethics of an atheist are sometimes taken as being less important than those of someone of faith. They're not. That was what I was trying to say.

beastofburden that is correct. I avoid all cheap, factory farmed, non-organic meat to the point I rarely eat meat which I haven't bought myself. I would not buy and would prefer not to eat Kosher or Halal meat because of the way it is produced but according to posters like box that can be dismissed as racist and anti-semitic. Although she has still to explain whether my Jewish friends who also avoid it have made a decision out of conscience or are also anti-semitic.

Caitlin choosing not to eat kosher meat, whether Jewish ot not, is not anti Semitic. Asking a Jewish family who have invited you for lunch not to serve kosher meat (by implication to anyone) is anti-Semitic.

To be honest I think that there are probably very few ppl who only avoid kosher. I think it's a bit of a straw man. Most ppl who avoid kosher probably also avoid cheap dodgy meat.

Not quite so true when there are school protests against halal meat. There, the parents are happy for low-welfare meat to be served generally; but for some reason halal has woken them up to the issue of food and animal welfare, and they won't accept it. Sometimes ppl are just a bit clueless and on autopilot, and its only things with a recognisable "brand" such as halal that nudge them into remembering to question where their meat came from. That's only human nature, I think, not racism; though undoubtedly there is a bit of islamophobia involved in some ppl. Much less common with kosher, I think, because kosher itself is less visible in public life.

It doesn't help that there are two kinds of kosher and halal slaughter. Most of it, the animal is stunned before death. The RSPCA thinks that's OK. A much smaller amount is not stunned, though stunning is more common in halal than in kosher. The RSPCA are campaigning for a ban on non-stunned kosher and halal: RSPCA campaign. They say "The RSPCA recognises that religious beliefs and practices should be respected. We also believe that it is important to ensure that animals are slaughtered under the most humane conditions possible. Scientific research has clearly demonstrated that slaughter of an animal without stunning can cause unnecessary suffering. The RSPCA is opposed to the slaughter of any food animal without first rendering it insensible to pain and distress until death supervenes."

I think that if an atheist takes the view that this is an important ethical issue, and wont eat food that may contravene this, that ought to be respected- at least equally with someone's wish to follow ancient dietary rules associated with some variants of their faith.

ecuse yes, asking them not to serve it at all is inexcusably rude. Realising the night before that you need to go veggie because you have only just thought about the kosher issue, and sending a clumsy badly worded text, is not actually a religious/racist issue. Only the OP knows the person concerned well enough to say whether they meant to say "stop being jewish for two hours next week". Given they came to her wedding, I doubt they can be all that anti-semitic; my guess is it was just badly worded and they meant, "dont serve it to us". Still a stupid thing to say: any normal person would have said "Sorry, forgot to say we are vegetarian please".

I hope the way the grapes were picked did not offend their sensibilities

My understanding is that there is some very small use of animal products in some types of non-kosher wine production. Whether that is replaced by a vegetarian alternative, or by a kosher non-vegetarian alternative, I'm not sure (and my brief Google while I am supposed to be working didn't reveal clearly either). I suspect the former but how pleasing for the OP if it was the latter.

I hope the way the grapes were picked did not offend their sensibilities

you know, that is exactly my point. Nobody would write that about a jewish or muslim person asking for kosher or halal. It's OK to write it about an atheist, though

My sensibilities are offended by non-stun halal and kosher slaughter. Perhaps that's because it is unspeakably cruel, as the RSPCA agrees. My sensibilities are offended by FGM as well. You know, sometimes it is not wrong to find somwething offensive.

Thanks, crescent - in which case my example ought to be a Sikh, not a muslim.

I still can't understand why meat isn't labelled as non stun meat if it's non stun meat. People should have a choice. I don't want to eat non stun meat. I don't care if it's been ritually killed but I want the animal stunned first.

Btw ALL waitrose meat is stunned.

Also, ALL Meat from NEW ZEALAND including lamb MUST be stunned by law.

If NZ meat is definitely stunned then I would buy it, I think. Thank you, I didnt know that.

Agree, I would buy stunned meat.

I [saddo that I am] am interested to find that kosher wine still allows the use of isinglass as a fining agent, so long as it's from a kosher fish, so not the beluga sturgeon (the original fish whose swimbladder was used to make isinglass) because the beluga sturgeon is non-kosher.

For other saddos: (From Wiki)
Requirements for being kosher[edit]

Further information: Kosher foods#Wine

Because of wine's special role in many non-Jewish religions, the kashrut laws specify that wine cannot be considered kosher if it might have been used for idolatry. These laws include Yayin Nesekh (??? ???) -wine that has been poured to an idol; Stam Yainom-wine that has been touched by someone who believes in idolatry or produced by non-Jews. When kosher wine is yayin mevushal ("??? ?????" - "cooked" or "boiled"), it becomes unfit for idolatrous use and will keep the status of kosher wine even if subsequently touched by an idolater.
While none of the ingredients that make up wine (alcohol, sugars, acidity and phenols) is considered non-kosher, the kashrut laws involving wine are concerned more with who handles the wine and what they use to make it.[2] To be considered kosher, a Sabbath-observant Jew must be involved in the entire winemaking process from the harvesting of the grapes, through fermentation to bottling. Any ingredients used, including finings, must be kosher.[1] This requirement can exclude certain fining agents, such as casein (which is derived from dairy products; this does not render it non-kosher but rather unfit for consumption with meat), gelatin (which is commonly, but not necessarily, derived from non-kosher animals; even if kosher, as a byproduct of animal slaughter, it renders the wine unfit for consumption with dairy products) and isinglass (which historically came exclusively from non-kosher fish, but currently can be produced from kosher fish as well). Egg whites can be used in the clarification of kosher wine but would not be appropriate for vegan kosher wine.[2]
Wine that is described as "kosher for Passover" must have been kept free from contact with grain, bread and dough.[2]

Even more interesting that Jews who strictly keep kosher would need to know which wines have casein used in their production, to know to avoid having them with meat; and ditto with gelatin, and having that wine with dairy.

Does the "idolatry" thing mean that wine produced by atheists is OK?

Caitlin I know what you mean but still think you're quibbling over minor points when it has more to do with the rudeness of the expectation and timing. Why would you a accept a dinner invitation from someone you know to be Jewish, especially so close to Passover, and then tell them 24 hours beforehand that you object to kosher meat? I just can't imagine doing it sorry. I'd have no problem telling them I was vegetarian if I was (with more notice though!) but really, since I normally eat meat, I'd let the ethical objections slide when I know it would be more of a problem for them to cook/eat non-kosher than for me.