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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To serve kosher meat just to spite them?

280 replies

flaquark · 29/03/2014 11:52

I think I might be being a tad silly but..

A few of DH's work collegues are coming over for sunday dinner (with their families) tomorrow. We did all the making sure about veggies and allergies and all that.
I got a text from one of them saying that they were looking forward to coming and all that and they added on the end that could we not serve any kosher meat tomorrow as they dont agree with it.
Both me and DH dont keep kosher, at all, never have.

For some reason the text really pissed me off, and I really want to go and buy different meat that is all kosher.

I'm being ridiculous aren't I?

OP posts:
HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 15:22

Stunning is not a clearcut beneficial process for the animals.

Stunning renders an animal paralysed. It is not certain that it renders an animal insensate. You know that horrid idea of being awake during an operation and able to feel the incisions but unable to shout out? Yup....What's worse, the paralysis is induced by electric shock. Electric shocks are known to be exceptionally painful, which is why they are beloved of torturers. On the other hand, a sufficiently sharp knife is not exceptionally painful, which is why you can cut yourself and only realise a few seconds later.

Jewish ritual slaughter cuts various major arteries in the neck of the animal, resulting in very fast loss of blood to the brain. You know how you feel dizzy and like you faint if you stand up too fast? Like that, but multiplied. So the animal becomes unconscious very quickly.

I never really understood why people would believe that being shot in the head with an electrified metal bolt would be less painful than having one's throat cut.

Guineapig99 · 01/04/2014 15:28

That's a bit random of them! However they are the guests, and it would be a little petty to go out of the way to service them something they've specifically ask you not to.
Maybe there's a story there, ask them when they turn up...

Beastofburden · 01/04/2014 16:04

well, home I am going to take the RSPCA's advice as they have carried out a rigorous scientific review of the evidence, including observing slaughters for a week across the whiole country. And they are not biassed either for or against ritual slaughter.

But if you right, it would be a reason to avoid all halal and kosher, not a reason to not worry if the animal is stunned or not.

cardamomginger · 01/04/2014 17:22

Have been dipping in and out of this. Just to clarify 3 things:

  • no kosher meat is pre-stunned. I have no idea about halal.
  • wines that are kosher have a hechsher (Rabbinic stamp) on them - so no need for the individual to worry about ingredients. And in any case the requirement for wine to be kosher is just as much to do with the use of wine in the ceremonies of other religions. Hence, grape juice must also be kosher. This has ramifications for things like jams and fruit juice blends, where grape juice may be an ingredient.
  • someone way upthread was talking about kosher meat slaughter in accordance with shacharit. 'Shacharit' is the morning prayer service. The correct term is 'shechita'. The person who kills the animal is called a shochet.
AnnieLobeseder · 01/04/2014 19:37

Oops, cardamom, I think that was me mixing up shacharit and sechita. And I'm Jewish, too. And fluent in Hebrew Blush.

BeatofBurden - you are of course entitled to believe that stunning animals before slaughter is more humane. And when it's done correctly this is probably true. However, a lot of the time it is not done correctly as the animal are not restrained to save time and three or more shots with a captive bolt are required.

Jewish ritual slaughter involves cutting the jugular veins, carotid arteries and all tendons etc in the throat in one very swift movement and if done correctly leads pretty much instantaneously to unconsciousness followed shortly by death.

While the RSPCA may have decided that correctly performed captive bolt causes less suffering, I really doubt there's a large degree of difference and it is quite a serious stretch to call kosher slaughter "unspeakably cruel". Hmm

AnnieLobeseder · 01/04/2014 19:41

(and totally off-topic, it's usually on threads where Jews gather that people "get" my name. I'm slightly disappointed that no one has yet)

tmae · 01/04/2014 19:56

Kosher meat is more cruelly harvested and so it is perfectly reasonable that they would not want to eat it, they should though have let you know further in advance and probably request to have something vegetarian instead.

Beastofburden · 01/04/2014 19:56

Interesting, card as that's not what the RSPCA said, but it did seem to be a bit contradictory, so I wasn't quite sure.

annie I do think that ppl would rather not think that kosher slaughter is cruel, as the tradition means a lot to them. So i have seen before various accounts of how kosher slaughter, if done perfectly, can be less cruel. But I also think that the RSPCA did an honest and professional job weighing the evidence. They said that much of the non-stunned slaughter did cause real fear and pain to the animals involved. Perhaps thats because it wasnt done perfectly.

You are pointing out that perfect kosher slaughter is less cruel than botched stunned slaughter, which of course is possible. but we ought to compare like with like, if we want a fair discussion. botched kosher slaughter is less humane than botched stunned slaughter; and perfect kosher slaughter is less himane than perfect stunned slaughter. The RSPCA spent long enough and observed enough slaughter to observe both perfect and botched jobs. So I don't think it is fair to suggest that I am jumping to conclusions or being a bit gullible by taking the RSPCA seriously. They are vets, after all. Perhaps "unspeakably cruel" was too harsh: I'm sorry about that.

I would like to believe that there is a form of kosher and halal slaughter that the RSPCa can recommend and that the faith communities can get behind. I was hoping it was stunning. I will be disappointed if I find that this is wrong and there is no humane form of slaughter recommended by the RSPCA that is acceptable to those faith communities.

I do get tired though of being told that my ethics are less important than someone else's just because I am an atheist and they are not. I understand that religious faith is a matter of personal conviction, so politeness is good, but I really don't accept that a belief is more important if it is a religious belief.

I do get your name, btw. Wink

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 20:15

Beast, observational studies are (1) of limited scientific value and (2) cannot form part of a rigorous scientific review of the evidence. And (3) whether they are biased is determined by their actions, not their descriptions of their pure intentions. Finally (4) if I am right, it is a reason to avoid all meat from stunned animals - exactly the opposite conclusion you've drawn.

(1) If you want to confirm that a stun has rendered an animal insensate, you have to do something other than observe. Observation can confirm lack of movement and can tell you about error rates in the stunning and slaughtering processes, but they can't tell you whether the animal is feeling pain. In fact, paralysis makes it particularly difficult to tell if an animal is insensate, as the animal's body movements cannot be observed (like humans, animals will flinch away from pain sources, for example - but they can't if they're paralysed). To test for pain in animals requires physiological studies, plus imaging studies of nociception. It's not easy to do, which is why people resort to shortcuts of saying "the animal is not moving and its eyes are closed, hence it is insensate".

(2) a new observational study of UK slaughter for one week is by definition new scientific evidence, and does not form part of a review of the current evidence. A review would identify all relevant studies and then weight each study on the basis of the rigour of the methods and analyses in a meta-analysis, to see whether a sufficiently clear picture emerges. The Cochrane Collaboration does this for medicine. I don't believe there's any analogous effort for animal slaughter.

(3) science is not just about rooting out overt bias, but unconscious bias. I am sure that the RSPCA hold a genuine belief that they are not predisposed to either back or work against religious slaughter and are simply working from the evidence, but that does not mean they do not hold such a bias. It may just be well hidden from their view. I personally think there is a quite plausible chain of reasoning by which one could expect bias to creep in (I mean, modern stunning via captive bolt must surely sound more inherently likely to be less painful than a slaughter method developed by religious groups hundreds of years ago). And thus, I think there is all the more reason for the RSPCA to be extra careful about bias, which makes me worry when they say "we're not biased" because that suggests complacency.

(4) if I'm right, then meat from stunned animals may be less humane than shocheted meat. So I don't understand why you conclude that you would eat only the former. The logic doesn't follow.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 20:25

Beast, I agree that ethics do not get extra points for being religiously inspired. But it does get rather complicated when the adherents of said religions have experienced extensive persecution for their beliefs.

And it gets even more complicated when you consider the relative intensity of effort and attention given to these issues vs other issues that affect many more animals for much more of their lives. I mean, you could ban shechita and halal and you would be affecting less than a tenth of all the animals suffering a mis-stunning in the UK.

So I don't think that what matters is a like-with-like comparison as you suggest to Annie, but a focus on reducing the total volume of suffering.

cardamomginger · 01/04/2014 20:29

Annie - ha! I did wonder about the perfect transliteration of shacharit and how that went along with an inaccurate use of the word! And yes, I get your name Grin. Beseder gamur!

cardamomginger · 01/04/2014 20:33

This may or may not be of interest to people:

www.shechitauk.org/

Beastofburden · 01/04/2014 20:36

home I can see why you think i may be confused, as i am summarising what I've read because this is a chat board, but it's ok, i do understand about scientific method and so forth. I'd be very interested to read any papers on this that you'd like to link to.

I am open to any evidence on this, but I would like, to see some. So far I mainly get ppl saying they would deduce x and y from their own observations. If there is a rigorous paper from professionals proving that non-stun slaughter is fine, of course I would be happy and interested to read it. I have access to all the usual professional scientific journal subscription services, so feel free to link whatever you have handy.

Really where I came in, though is on the general point about mutual respect. I do get the sense that ppl with religious beliefs think that those beliefs are more important, intrinsically, than beliefs that are not religious. Of course, if you are religious, i can see that you almost have to believe that. If you are not religious, you are used to being very respectful of religious practice. I'm not sure we get the same respect in return. But a belief that halal or kosher is cruel seems to me to be deserving of the same respect as a belief that kosher or halal are important.

NoodleOodle · 01/04/2014 20:41

You asked what they wanted/didn't want, the only thing I find rude here is that thye didn't give you much notice.

AnnieLobeseder · 01/04/2014 20:45

Thank you for your reasoned response, Beast. I agree that you are quite fairly basing your conclusions on research done by others; even if, as Home has pointed out, the research may be flawed, you are working from the best evidence available to you. It was pretty much the "unspeakably cruel" comment I objected to, not your stance on meat-production ethics per se. And I agree about religious beliefs "trumping" those of atheists as if something being a religious viewpoint makes a belief in the ethics of any given situation more valid. I am a Jewish atheist, and a vegetarian too for ethical reasons. My own moral compass, however, is very much aligned with that of Judaism, which sees compassion in treatment and slaughter of animals as paramount.

Caitlin17 - you said "I would not buy and would prefer not to eat Kosher or Halal meat because of the way it is produced but according to posters like box that can be dismissed as racist and anti-semitic." But as has been pointed out many times on the thread, if you have concerns about the provenance of meat, or prefer to eat organic ethically sourced etc, then you say that you prefer either ethical meat or a veggie option, please. You don't specify that kosher is not okay while not caring if you're being served a battery cage-raised chicken. That's what makes it anti-Semitic; not objecting to the ethics of the meat.

And as for staticdust, I'm slightly bemused to find out that neither myself, my family nor anyone in my Reform synagogue are religious or keep kosher simply because we don't identify with the Orthodox movement. Are you Jewish? Because while I accept that the ultra-Orthodox don't recognise me as a "real" Jew, I assure you I do indeed keep kosher.

Beastofburden · 01/04/2014 20:50

Thanks to all and sorry for some cross posting here. I have to sign off for the evening now so please don't think I am ignoring you or not thinking about what you have said. Have a nice evening.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 20:53

Beast, there is no material evidence to review, at least so far as I can tell. I work with medical science rather than veterinary science, so I don't have the same level of access to the sources, but the evidence either way just doesn't appear to be there. For example, the RSPCA position paper references:

  1. A 2003 FAWC report
  2. A single scientific paper from 2009
in the body of the document. The FAWC report does not itself refer to published scientific papers.

I think the problem I have with your position is that your starting point is to say "unless you can show me that non-stun slaughter is fine, I'm skeptical that it is". My starting point is: "unless you can show me that stunned slaughter is better than non-stun, I'm skeptical that it is". So far as I can tell, there is no decent evidence on the topic, and the conclusions that the RSPCA and FAWC professionals have drawn are based on perfectly plausible chains of reasoning that are nonetheless evidence-free.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 20:56

Annie, if it helps, I'm an agnostic Masorti member who doesn't keep kosher... and my black hat cousins no doubt think I'm completely heretical for not believing in torah min hashamayim.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/04/2014 20:56

Have a good evening, Beast

ThatOtherTime · 01/04/2014 21:21

Years ago I worked as a meat inspector on the line in various abattoirs as part of my training I did all the same type of work as the slaughtermen.

My opinion is based on my experience. When you stun an animal it is an instantaneous action. It doesn't work perfectly every single time but the 'success' rate is very high. One second the animal is concious a split second later it isn't.
I can't see how slitting an animals throat can possibly be as fast. I also think the opportunity for it to be done perfectly every time must be higher than with a captive bolt.

I prefer not to eat non stun meat and I strongly believe that meat should be labelled if it is not stunned. I still willingly eat at restaurants selling halal (or kosher) meat so my refusal to knowingly buy non stun meat is a preference rather than an die hard belief IYSWIM

I object to live animals being transported long distances far more than I object to non stun killing. Animals suffer for hours and hours whilst being transported unnecessarily. This type of suffering is drawn out and preventable.

AnnieLobeseder · 01/04/2014 21:36

ThatOtherTime - you say you can't imagine it being as fast. So you haven't seen it then? You're basing your opinion on only having seen one option?

cardamomginger · 01/04/2014 22:12

This might be of interest:

www.shechitauk.org/uploads/tx_resources/Physiological_insights_into_Shechita__S.D.Rosen__Veterinary_Record_2004_01.pdf

Annie, Homehelp - Orthodox atheist here who keeps kosher (to outsiders this may seem like a contradiction - but you know how it goes!)

ThatOtherTime · 01/04/2014 22:21

Well spotted Annie but it's still a better guess than basing it on not having seen either type of slaughter. Wink

cardamomginger · 01/04/2014 22:27

Abstract of the paper I linked above:

The Government recently announced that it intends to reject a recommendation by the Farm
Animal Welfare Council that all animals should be stunned before slaughter (see VR, April 10, p 446).
In this Viewpoint article, Dr Stuart Rosen discusses physiological aspects of Shechita, the Jewish
method of religious animal slaughter. He outlines the religious context and describes the act of
Shechita. He discusses the scientific literature on the behavioural responses to Shechita as well as
neurophysiological studies relevant to the assessment of pain, and concludes that Shechita is a
painless and humane method of animal slaughter.

ThatOtherTime · 01/04/2014 22:38

Oops, just noticed a mistake in my last but one post. I meant to say that I think there is more potential for mistakes to be made with slitting an animal throat rather than when using a captive bolt.