If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

What i always like in these threads is the confidence that some posters have that the unemployed or low wage young people are from a different planet. Of course they dont care about nmw and zero contracts because their children won't be in this situation. This is for the other children. The ones who didnt live in the right postcode and ate mcdonalds.

But just because you take your dcs to the library and abroad it doesnt mean that you can control their future life. Teenagers and young people are funny. I want to see what some posters will say about nmw and part time jobs and workfare et c if their dcs are faced with that.
Fatalism is silly but it is even more silly to think that you can control the future.

I grew up in poverty.
Father refused to stay with my mother as I wasn't a boy. She was uneducated due to being ill as a child.
No money for extras. So imagine if something broke, like a washing machine. There wasn't a laundrette anywhere nearby. So hand washing it was. Smelly clothes because they didn't dry properly in the cold/damp flat.

Cooker breaks. This is essential. Manages to get a social loan but only enough to get a 2nd hand cooker. This is soon condemned by the gas board. Another loan, another crap cooker. If the loan has been for the 2 amounts combined, could have bought a new one.

Fridge breaks.

None of the items were new to being with.

Nothing we had as a child's as new. None of my clothes.

Once you're poor & up shit street financially you are fucked.

My mother didn't drive. We lived miles away from anywhere so only had the expensive corner shop.

I looked poor & was picked on at school.

I got a job when I was 16. Most of my friends had Saturday jobs. I couldn't afford the initial bus fare to town where they worked or the nice clothes to go for an interview. I managed to get a job in a local corner shop. For crap money. So I worked longer hours than my friends. They did 6 hours on a Saturday. I did 8 hours on a Saturday, 6 on a Sunday & 2 evenings. I started on £1.50 an hour. When I left, I was on £2.00 an hour.

So I didn't do very well in my a levels as I had to work to just get the basics.

This was 20 years ago but I would imagine things are the same now.

I am not poor now, my husband has a really good job. He's worked his socks off. He doesn't have many qualifications.

Nowadays getting a degree doesn't automatically get you a decent job.

I've got friends who have no idea from week to week how many hours they will be working. It's so stressful. They're job hunting, but there's not the jobs out there.

My children are all at school. I can't get a job as I've been out if the job market for over 10 years looking after my children. Luckily we can manage in my husbands wage. I have qualifications. And work experience. And volunteer experience.

It's bloody hard out there & clawing your way out of poverty is not easy. Poverty grinds you down. My mother will be poor till the day she dies.

Sorry, this is very long, but it's a subject close to my heart. I've lived it. I heard all this growing up. People's opinions of the poor haven't changed, it's just there's more ways of getting voices heard nowadays.

YY Wirecat There are more ways now for ppl and politicians to show their contempt for working class people..

I saw another poster say there wasnt as much propaganda against poor ppl in the 80s. There was definately some. I remember Peter Lilleys scathing mysogynistic speech about single mothers around about 89/90 i think it was.

Would that be 'the list' 1992?

Darkest eyes, there was loads of scathing for the poor before the Internet.

"Friend" told me my mother should get off her lazy fat arse & get a job. She did get a job, clearing tables in mcdonalds as that's all she could do. She couldn't even work a till. I was then laughed at due to my mothers job, even her working didn't improve things. She didn't go out to work cos if that btw, she waited till it was safe for me to be home by myself while she worked.

I think people who have never experienced being poor have no idea whatsoever.

Some people are just so snobby about those who have 'less' than they do.

Not even realising that nobody can know what the future brings..lose a job, you can be 1 or 2 pay cheques away from bankruptcy, easily. Having to leave an abusive relationship, young people being kicked out or running away from abusive step-parent who moved into the home and didn't want them there (saw that a lot when I worked in homelessness)..so many different things.

In a society that looks down on the 'have-nots' with too many people that don't even wonder why poverty is becoming more widespread - nobody is safe. Way too much finger-pointing goes on. Id like to think that even if god forbid I was without work - Im self-employed and even thats far more precarious than it was just a few years ago - my family and friends wouldn't look down on me and stick their nose into the fact I have a large screen tv etc. But in a way I take heart that some of the outlandish views I hear on MN, I just don't hear in real life. I don't listen to too much government spiel, I dont read the Daily Mail and I switch over whenever Hopkins appears on tv so that's probably why.

I have a friend who has been on JSA for a few months now after losing her job. She's having hospital appointments and is due to have an op in July. Feeling unwell she couldn't fully complete her job search and had informed benefits office of this. They still suspended/cut her money based on her jobsearch not being 'full' enough, then gave her a letter to take to the Food Bank. She'd never been to a food bank before in her life. Thats the state of play nowadays. People work for years, get an unlucky break ie job loss followed by illness and thats it..lumped in with the 'undeserving poor' by the smug opinionated folk who feel the status they've elevated themselves to (Im a legend in my own lunchtime..better than you, as I work and pay tax) gives them insight into other people's circumstances. What you see on the outside isn't always a full picture of a person's reality.

complex I agree about UK poverty being relative, but it still affects a child's life chances. So, for example, having internet access at home is, by global standards, a luxury, but it's so commonplace in the UK (95% of households with children have it) that it is borderline necessity, and now its becoming a factor in educational equality/ inequality. Yes, you can go to the library to use internet, but not if the library is miles away, or only open 3 days a week, or not open when your parents aren't working. I think if you don't have something that has become so commonplace that its become assumed (I am guilty of this- assume all adults I know have a smartphone to the extent that I'll say "I'll whatsapp you" rather than "I'll text you") then it becomes a problem.

On that note, I slightly disagree with Laquitor re But just because you take your dcs to the library and abroad it doesnt mean that you can control their future life... I want to see what some posters will say about nmw and part time jobs and workfare et c if their dcs are faced with that.

Frankly, if my kids end up on nmw, despite being NT, able bodied and with their relative socio-economic advantages, then zero sympathy/ advocacy coming from me. I imagine many of us know people who got dealt a winning hand and squandered it, often through laziness or apathy. That's social mobility- it goes both ways.

However, I do agree that people do perceive an "otherness" in poverty, although I think this tends to be how we view all unfortunate circumstances- the "I never thought it would happen to me" sentiment re illnesses, accidents, DV, cheating spouses etc.

I have seen statistics about the numbers of children going hungry in the UK and they are shocking. There is nothing relative about hunger!

I agree that poverty is a complex thing .
There are huge generizations
However poverty is not just about claimants it relates to the working poor too.
Take flights post which says its not their fault- if they have known no different- ie the poor is generally true but could also be seen as a generalisation- my dh was brought up with a severely mentally ill mother, a dad with gambling addiction and who was told to steal from local shops- refused - as his parents were banned .he went to night school whilst working got qualifi actions .now good job. He had no role models he can identify except from I don't want a life like that so surely lack of role models can in fact spur some fol k on. I know this may be exception than rule and there are complex issues around this. I also come from a very working class background and was only girl in my whole school to go to uni - family friends said to relatives why is a girl going to u ni? Jobs in my village were the pit and a factory. Just to remain hopeful that it is not background only but I totally acknowledge the massive hurdle both psychological and physician barrier that were you are born can present.

charity attitudes like that contribute to people being trapped in a NMW job. I took a low paid job 7months after redundancy. I took it in preference to staying unemployed. Every job I applied for had at least 200 applicants, some even had over 500.

I continued to job hunt but still faced the same issues over the number of people applying. In addition I've had to contend with the assumption I'm not capable of the higher paid jobs because of my current one. I've had "we don't accept applications from your postcode". I have zero chance of moving before finding a better paid job yet not being able to move yet hinders me getting that job. That's why it's called the poverty "trap".

I'm still low paid. I'm also studying full time in the hope I can get a better job. My placements plus work mean I do a minimum of 40 hrs a week. Like this week because I had a couple of much needed days off to recover. A normal week I'd be doing over 50 hours, usually nearer 70 with assignments and independent study on top. How does this warrent the label of lazy and apathetic. I work very hard for the pay I do get.

Calling people who are low paid lazy and apathetic really just proves the point that the poor of the UK are looked down upon and seen as sub-human. How would all you proper people end up feeling if you were regarded by society as not a proper human being. I'm sure you wouldn't like it.

I was just thinking, it's funny how it works. If I won the euromillions and gave up work all together I'd be a proper person because I'd be rich. However if I don't win and continue to slog away in a low paid job I'm lazy and apathetic.

I don't actually play the euro or lotto. Don't want to be flammed for wasting tax payers money on another thing I don't spend money on.

I have become poor over the past year for various reasons. My friends have been amazing, and without them we'd have been stuffed. I'm lucky in that it's short term and we are pulling out of the worst of it now.

I was open minded before but I have renewed appreciation for how hideous getting into the welfare system is. We are lucky in that, with the support of friends, we haven't had to go the benefits route but I looked into it and the paperwork was hugely complex and very confusing. The attitude of the staff in the jobcentre was appalling and, while I was lucky to find myself a job at a company I used to wrk for, I would never have found something through them.

suga4eva I love hearing stories about people who overcame a difficult start to make a success of themselves. I was one of those people too. I feel that a few people on this thread resent us though and think we are saying 'if I can do it why can't others' which we are not at all. Just offering hope, I think.

However, I do think it will be harder for younger generations now (I'm mid 30's) and a degree is no longer a route out of poverty and even people from middle class backgrounds struggle to buy houses / find secure work.

We all have different attitudes to money. I happen to be a saver but I have much wealthier friends who struggle to get through the month and friends on 10k who manage fine.

charitycase social mobility does hgo both ways but I hate the resentment (not from you) afforded to those of us who 'made good'. It seems

Glad you have come through it cycle. I have heard about attitudes of Jobcentre and glad I have never had to go through that route. Paperwork probably difficult to put people off. I have family who get DLA and same there.

Wirecat....are you me!? :)
I could have written your post word word except my parent both worked and we were still poor.

I hope you don't think I'm one of those who resent you five. The point I've been trying to make is there's no overnight fix to poverty. Even if you can get out of it, it takes years of hard work. Those years of hard work are made more difficult by people calling you lazy, feckless, etc etc because you'll still be poor til it all works out.

I also believe hard work alone is not enough, you need some luck thrown in too. Eg the job being there to apply for at the right time. Luck alone is also not enough because you need the hard work to take advantage of it.

The name calling and condescension heaped on the poor can never be a solution to poverty. It only serves to grind the poor down further and make a shit situation more shit. Budgeting can maximise how far your money goes but when the amount of money you have is below a certain level it will never be enough. It's unfair to assume a poor person doesn't budget without definite evidence to the contrary. Assuming a poor person smokes and drinks a lot and telling them they wouldn't be poor if they just stopped is just plain stupid. Not all poor people smoke and drink.

No useless I don't think you have come across like that and I agree that poverty takes years to escape and it is being made harder. Luck definitely plays a part too.

Not all poor people are bad at budgeting but some 'people'' rich or poor are. Sure, if there isn't much money your task is made pretty difficult and you have to take less cost effective measures like using gas meters and pay as you go phones etc.

Poor people are not lazy and feckless. I know a few rich people who are but of course it is hidden as family bail them out. Therefore society doesn't make pariahs of the feckless rich.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, it's very long. But I did read that some people don't want to work from the bottom and go up. Can I just ask, where is the bottom?
I'm poor, stuck on benefits (which I absolutely hate!). My husband walked out on New Year's Eve 2013, hasn't paid a penny for our DC since. I have good A levels and a degree and I'm desperately trying to find work in the psychological care sector. I've applied for care work and therapist work and simply can't find it. When my husband was around, I applied for volunteering just to get some experience to give me a leg up and now he's gone I just can't afford to work for free. I can't pay childcare if I am working for nothing. Not like the applications for voluntary work came to anything. I want to work from the bottom but I can't find it!!!!
I have recently worked it out that I could work if I can find a job paying £15k pa but would still need some help from the government (tax credits, childcare grants etc). Hopefully, when my eldest goes to school I will find it an awful lot easier.

Badvoc xxx

I also couldn't find a decent job after my a levels (couldn't afford to go to uni) cos of my postcode. So I did a bad thing. I applied for an office job. Didn't hear anything. Sent in same application, other than used a friends address. I got an interview. My mother said our postcode would hold me back.

Being poor is so shit.

I will never forget, despite having money nowadays. I don't take it for granted at all.

I still don't buy myself anything unless I actually need it. And I still feel wrong going into decent shops. I thought I was going to get stopped the 1st time I bought something from Wallis!

My kids have in idea what it's like to be poor, and when they were younger I really spoilt them. I thought they needed material things.

I will never ever forget being poor & hungry & cold. It is demoralising. It is depressing. It is horrendous.

Unless you are rich, with family money, noone is immune from becoming poor.

Picking up on the earlier point about our own DC facing poverty....I have two adult dds, able bodied etc, both studying for degrees and both working part time for minimum wage. Dd1 s degree is via the OU so she still lives at home as she can't afford to move out. She doesn't drive because she can't afford lessons and we can't afford the insurance. Her chances of getting full time paid work seem to be non existent. Our tiny flat now houses 5 adults and things just get tougher and tougher. If either dh or I were to lose out jobs we would be in real trouble very quickly.

Yes! Me too!
I left after a levels in the middle of the 1991/2 recession.
Uni not an option due to finances - I was so desperate to get away :(
Ended up working in a care home for £2.50 an hour :(
Worked ft and pt til I had dc. Office jobs.
In fact I was working from 14 - had Saturday jobs and babysat regularly.
I am hoping to start some voluntary work again soon - I had to give up my 2 voluntary roles last year due to everything that happened.

I was the same with my kids too.
Am getting better though!
Ds2 has already told me what he wants for his b day (in sept!!) - a wooden bow and arrow :)

My ds1 is 10.
He is already worried about getting a house and finding a job :(
He keeps asking us what will happen if he doesn't get a job...I never thought about this stuff at that age.

Large swathes of the population not being "work ready" (ie having sufficient preparation, education and skills for available jobs) is a real problem in advanced societies and not the fault of individuals.

charity attitudes like that contribute to people being trapped in a NMW job. I took a low paid job 7months after redundancy. I took it in preference to staying unemployed. Every job I applied for had at least 200 applicants, some even had over 500.

Useless, you might want to re-read my post. Nowhere am I saying people on NMW jobs are lazy and apathetic. What I was saying is that certain individuals who I know have been handed a bloody good hand in life (affluent, well educated, engaged parents with lots of useful contacts, public school, left Uni with no debt, some family money, etc) and have yet made very little of themselves. I believe strongly in the concept of cultural inheritance, and how that impacts life chances. On that basis, there are people from certain backgrounds that you would not expect to end up in NMW jobs. At the same time, there are people whose backgrounds mean that to sustain a NMW job is actually quite an achievement.

In summary, there should never be an assumption that poverty is the fault of the individual, but in certain cases it can be a contributory factor.

I think the expression is "First generation starts it, second generation makes it, third generation spends it" It's actually a very good observation.