If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Well, for a start, if you're not constantly worried about how you are going to afford the next meal, or whether the money on the electric key is enough to last until the next time you get paid, you have more time and energy to devote to your DC.

[MorrisZapp]

Of course poor people aren't subhuman. But there are loads of posts on here about how poor people had shit childhoods, are unable to access services, may have chaotic lifestyles etc. How would cash help them to provide a better childhood for their own kids, beyond the material basics?

[SolidGoldBrass]

Going back to the economically sound idea of just giving poor people more money and the idea put forward by some that they would 'just waste it', why not have a little think about how the comfortably-off spend their money? Some save, some give to charity, some invest in businesses, and of those that spend on entertainment eg restauarant meals, that's circulating the money in the economy. A percentage will spend far more than they have on drink or drugs, but most are reasonably sensible. If everyone had a basic income to a decent lliving standard, some might spend it on getting wasted, but the majority wouldn't. Or do you thnk that poor people really are a subhuman class?

[Callani]

The way people talk about the poor reminds me of how my Great Gran used to talk about Asian immigrants.

She'd go on and on about how they were all lazy and rude, and they didn't bother to learn English, and then I'd remind her of Mr Shah who owned the cornershop and she'd say "Oh, I didn't mean him - obviously he's different". And what about the Indian lady 3 doors down who always came to check on her and made sure she was ok? "Oh not her family, they're lovely, they work very hard and they're really kind and care about society, unlike the rest of them"

And on it went, every Asian immigrant she personally knew was the exception and yet in her mind they formed this huge conglomerate mass of BAD PEOPLE.

Now people do the same for poor people. They hold up one or two bad examples of lazy people who form "the rule" and if I point out MANY examples of hard working people who struggle, they're "just the exception" and I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not denying that some people on benefits are lazy, but does it really take that big a stretch of imagination to realise that there's more than one type of poor person?

[HobbetInTheHeadlights]

Hobbet sorry you faced such negativity when DH was made redundant. Hope things are better.

We're fine now thanks Fiveleaves - though within 12 months of that DH was then badly inured on way into work.

We did nothing wrong just a lot bad luck at the worst time and it could have so easily have been so much worse. As it was financially an emotionally it took a toll and time to get over - again longer than many round us realised.

I think many people found it more comforting to themselves to blame us than accept shit can happen to anyone.

[daphnehoneybutt]

YANBU

Some people have no compassion for those less fortunate.

Guess its easier to judge the people "below" you than think about why things might be that way...

[sashh]

I don't think poverty in the UK and other places is THAT relative.

We have families in Britain sharing one room. We have families going hungry. We have families where parents can't earn enough money to feed their children. We have families who cannot afford to heat their homes.

And Happymummy

How is childcare going to help me and others become less disabled? Do you think childcare costs the same for all children? Try to find a babysitter for a child with SN, let alone enough childcare to work, and an employer who understands you might need to leave at a moment's notice.

Sorry, having children is a choice. Having a child with SN isn't. Having a disability isn't.

Childcare would help some people, SN childcare would be a damn site more helpful.

What would also be helpful is that if you have a disability and take a temporary job when your contract ends if you could go back on sickness benefits, not suddenly find out that the NI you have been paying/credited with only counts towards JSA and you can't receive JSA because you are classed as 'sick.

[yorkie84]

Yanbu. Smoking on 71 per week when you spend a fortune job searching and travelling to jonb centre. Very likely!

[unlucky83]

I agree to disagree - and massive thread derail but
I think it is important that preschool children get to socialise with their peers. Groups like playgroups are important for parents to get to know other parents, especially if they have no family around/ friends with DCs. It helps to form a support network. It isn't all about 'education'. It is also about community. For SAHP it is an opportunity for a child to experience time away from their parents. For part-time workers it is an opportunity for their child (and parent) to get to know others that will be in their school year.
You can't have a group like that anymore (employ someone) without jumping through hoops - and so you need to claim the funding to pay for the hoops but that provides a whole new set of hoops to jump through...
I wonder if Steven Hawking or Watson & Crick or Rosalind Franklin or Fredrick Sanger or Tim Berners-Lee or Bill Gates or Seamus Heaney had preschool education by someone with SVQ3 or equivalent?

[WooWooOwl]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree about qualifications then.

Clearly, early years education does need to be better funded by government, but not at the expense of quality staff. Children who have decent parents don't need to be at pre school before funding kicks in, and those who don't have decent parents or other reasons for needing it can get funding earlier. But for disadvantaged children from disengaged homes, it would be close to pointless to send them to pre school without staff who have a reasonable level of education.

[unlucky83]

Woowoo I still disagree...
What about a retired primary teacher who has worked with 2-3 yr olds for the last 20 yrs...counts for nothing...
The danger with the the way things are going is that you end up with a highly qualified workforce - which you can't pay above NMW anyway - or if you do or even if you don't - the cost to parents is so high that a child doesn't have any kind of experience of preschool education or even preschool groups until they are eligible for funding - which even then is arguably not enough.
Playgroups etc are struggling now - closing now - they can't make ends meet - but I know in our area the council don't have enough preschool places without them ...

[WooWooOwl]

Unlucky, every practitioner should be involved in planning. Where do you think the money is going to come from to employ a nappy changer as well as a practitioner that is capable of being a key worker?

They do need more than just to be 'good with children'.

People can be good with children as well as being qualified, as well as having decent literacy and numeracy skills, along with knowledge of the government legislation that affects children, at the same time as being able to plan and assess while also having some solid knowledge of child development and the various theories surrounding that.

I know that if I was paying someone to care for and educate my children I'd want someone that could do all those things.

It is also right that someone who manages an early years setting has relevant training and experience, a retired primary school teacher who has worked with year six for the last 15 years may well not have a clue about how to deal with an average 3yo.

[WooWooOwl]

Agree!

But then I also know TAs who could do the teachers job standing on their heads and to a much higher standard.

[unlucky83]

woowoo I have to disagree - I said very specifically if they are suitably supervised. There is a lot more to preschool than changing nappies etc - but then someone has to do that too...and they don't need to be educated to SVQ (NVQ) level 2 or 3. They need to be good with children. If the childcare setting has the correct policies, plans and procedures in place -basically on job training - do they really need the piece of paper? They may never progress up the ladder to be responsible for planning etc and therefore their earning potential may be limited - unless they get the qualifications.
What really really annoys me is the coming need for a degree - a specific degree- to be a playgroup 'manager'. A retired primary teacher or other degree will not be suitable. And the very nature of these jobs are they are part time and not highly paid (and can't be - the money isn't there)
And I don't know if this is just Scotland but the same need for qualifications is being introduced for people who work in care homes etc (by 2020 IIRC) ...and the qualifications aren't measuring people skills or caring ability...

[YouTheCat]

I know fully qualified teachers who can't spell or use basic grammar. I know TAs, with degrees, who wouldn't know a proper noun if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.

But these days a good, sound general knowledge and basic skills count for nothing. Schools want all-singing, all-dancing children's entertainers. School has to be fun and jolly.

[Badvoc]

Even the simplest office job now seems to require a degree...doesn't seem to matter if it's in dance and drama, just any degree will do!
Agree that degrees have become devalued - and some degree courses are just a joke.
Woohoo...yes. It staggers me how bad some of the CMs, nursery nurses and TAs basic knowledge is. I'm talking about basic spelling and grammar.
I know one lady - she is lovely - and works at a pre school. She can hardly spell at all. Carnt for can't etc.
I really support much tougher qualifications for those who teach our kids - and much higher pay too!

[Dwerf]

Woowoo, I know. I'm just being flippant. I'm a grumpyarsed sod. I actually agree with having to have qualifications, and the expierence too. I can understand why, I just get grumpy. The job advisor may smile at me and tell me I have lots of transferable skills, but without the actual qualifications and the proveable experience it seems to mean jack.

[WooWooOwl]

I agree that people can be qualified but be crap at a job, but there are very good reasons why people who work in childcare settings need to be educators.

Experience and ability are of course very important, but it's still better to have someone looking after children that has those things as well as a qualification. An NVQ L2 is very basic, and is not really enough IMO.

People who work in early years childcare need to be able to implement the EYFS, which goes right up to five years old, so it's no good being great with babies when you don't have the literacy and basic maths skills to be able to stretch a bright four year old.

There is much more to being an early years practitioner than being able to change a nappy quickly and hold on to more than one child on a day out.

[Dwerf]

True, I should go into politics, I've always been told I'm excellent at bullshit. (My problem is actually honesty, too honest)

[Smilesandpiles]

and yet, with no common sense, experience or relevent qualifications you can be in Parliament and run the country into the ground , Hell, you don't even have to do a decent days work growing up.

[Dwerf]

Ah yes, the qualifications. I've been a mother over twenty years, I can change a nappy in a minute flat, deal with a tantrumming toddler and take a bunch of kids on a day out without losing any of them but I can't get a job in childcare because I don't have the qualifications or 'the experience'.

ob advisor said to me 'have you thought about cleaning or care work?'. Yes, but I don't have the qualifications or experience for those either.

[Smilesandpiles]

" people can be qualified and crap at a job"

Christ yes.

The number of qualified tradesmen I met through dp (at the time) who were down right fucking dangerous at the job was scary. Really, really scary. They had all the paperwork but zero common sense and respect for the job.

[unlucky83]

I agree that the need for qualifications for everything now is a problem and actually stands in people's way.
I think the previous labour governments aim for 50% plus people to go to university has achieved nothing but lowered the value of a degree (and kept youth unemployment figures down). And increased the cost of doing a degree for everyone...thus excluding/discouraging brighter people from poorer backgrounds.
My latest annoyance (here in Scotland at least) is that in order to work with preschool children you have to complete S(N)VQs. I'm not saying that working with children is not important but surely not everyone who works with preschool children is responsible for their education - suitably supervised people don't really need a qualification - except they do! And experience counts for nothing.
I know of an instance of someone who was a single mother at a young age, always worked, often more than one job. They do not have the time or resources for childcare to enable them to do the qualifications. So even though they are good at their job, have done it for years, they are going to have to give up work.
Actually my biggest problem with this is not the poor but the less academic. I worked with children with SEN many years ago. One child was not at all academic, but had managed from the age of 5-6 to get themselves to school. They had lots of practical common sense and very caring personality - I always thought they would be wonderful looking after very young children or old people...but I doubt they'd manage to get the qualification ..
The whole thing makes my blood boil ...the view that a piece of paper is more important than experience or ability - people can be qualified and crap at a job...and if they realise that they then have to get another piece of paper before they can try and see if they are any good at another job...

[Ubik1]

Yes - DP's income halved in 2006 due to recession and I was no longer employed as there were plenty of students/graduates willing to work fir free. We were seriously in debt - mortgage, three kids.

It's frightening how quickly things can spiral out of control. Once you have experienced it you are never the same again.

Am working in a call centre, finishing degree - today I sat next to former police intelligence officer/former policeman/business studies graduate and former HR officer. Times are tough for alot of people.