If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

[Dwerf]

My parents always worked, we weren't dirt poor, but we weren't well off either. And I know that when me and my sister were small, my dad was working seven days a week for long shifts and they still had sod all.

I made bad choices as a teen and have lived a somewhat chaotic adulthood. My sister started work when she left school, was in a long-term relationship when she decided to have children and they both had jobs. Fast forward fifteen years and she's not much better off than I am. All those good choices and years of work have not clawed her upwards to the point where they off of all benefits.

I'm desperate for my kids to better themselves. I keep telling them that their route to a better life is to stay at school, go to college, go to uni, get themselves off this estate. I love them, but I don't want them to follow my path, I want better for them. My son heeded this and is at uni now. My eldest also became a young mum, but she's in a stable relationship and they have long term plans once her health improves. My youngest wants to be a PE teacher, the fact that she even has a realistic career goal gladdens me.

[uselessidiot]

charity I left uni without debt, I went in the old pre-loan and fees days. I currently have a low paid job so I guess I fall into your lazy and feckless category. Thank you very much, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised as it's hardly the worst that's been said to me.

I thought I was being responsible when I accepted my current job as the alternative was remaining unemployed. Time and time again it's been implied that this was in some way wrong. I don't fully understand as the same people would be at least as disapproving of me being unemployed. I suppose it's something only proper human beings can understand.

[Darkesteyes]

In my case it was poverty of aspiration in the home. Think you and i must be roughly the same age Badvoc. I left college in 91 and was brought up to believe that after leaving school it was a job in a factory or a nursing home (not that i think there is anything wrong with these jobs) ive worked in a nursing home I asked to go to drama school at eleven Nothing was done about it. By the time i was ready to leave school i wanted to go into journalism .
The answer was "What for" There was no support for uni I didnt qualify for a grant because both my parents worked. The attitude was "Know your place" My young niece is 19 and doesnt want to go to uni but both my parents always say "What for" whenever the subject came up. My parents met each other in the 60s. I wont put too much detail of where and why but my dad offered to pay for my mum to go through night school to better her chances and get herself into a less back breaking jobs and (yep youve guessed it The answer was "What for" She refused. But my objection is where she thinks everyone else should do the same. Looking back on this i get really annoyed about it now.

[Darkesteyes]

Dwerf you sound amazing I wish id had the same encouragement you are giving your children

[lottieandmia]

You don't have to go to university to get a good career. I know people who left school with few GCSEs and who are now doing very well for themselves.

[Smilesandpiles]

No, but now you need a degree to get any sort of job. I've seen adverts for cleaners and strawberrry pickers jobs but they wanted graduates.

[Darkesteyes]

I was told that to even get a foot in the door i would HAVE to go to uni. Then i was told that i didnt qualify for a grant because both my parents worked.

[Darkesteyes]

I even asked our local paper if i could do a placement there. They asked if i was going to go to uni. I was honest and told them it was looking unlikely.
The editor then said in a sarcastic tone.....well how nice of you to want to spend your summer holidays with us"

[Ubik1]

Yes I graduated and did my journalism exams. I started as a reporter 15 years ago. I think the majority of colleagues did not have degrees.

If it's any consolation there have been mass redundancies in print media (I was a casualty) and increasingly it's no longer a trade for clever working class kids.

[Dwerf]

I'm not amazing darkesteyes, if I was amazing I eould have managed to sort my bloody life out by now. My grandmother once said to me: if you can't be a good example, be a terrible warning. So flaming apt. Hey kids, this is how not to do it.

I do worry that even if I manage to get earning and better myself, that all I'm going to lift myself into is a slightly higher level of poverty. The sort of poverty where you earn too much to get help, yet not enough to cover what needs to be paid. I've been there before. This is why I'm skeptical of the better-off calculations. They tell you that on NMW doing these hours you'll be £100 better off a week, but when you factor in the £20 a week for busfare, and the £20 a week school dinners, the council tax and rent top-up, the childcare top-up and you discover you're actually working for an extra fifteen quid a week blalanced against the extra stress of holding down a job and a home. You can sort of begin to see why people stay on benefits.

That said, I ought to be working, I feel ashamed that I'm not. I'm looking for work now that I've got past some of my personal barriers to employment. I signed on when my marriage broke up all full of optimism and determination. Now I f eel g round down by it all, like it's never going to change.

[Darkesteyes]

Ubik im sorry to hear about the redundancies in print media Its such a shame I did see on another thread someone say that there is suppressed panic in the newspaper and magazine industries (and many mags have folded in recent years NewWoman/Eve/ Easy Living etc) i guess its part due to more ppl accessing the internet and the rise in social media and blogs. Im sorry youve experienced this first hand

[Darkesteyes]

Dwerf you are encouraging your children and giving them confidence That is priceless

[Ubik1]

Yes - DP's income halved in 2006 due to recession and I was no longer employed as there were plenty of students/graduates willing to work fir free. We were seriously in debt - mortgage, three kids.

It's frightening how quickly things can spiral out of control. Once you have experienced it you are never the same again.

Am working in a call centre, finishing degree - today I sat next to former police intelligence officer/former policeman/business studies graduate and former HR officer. Times are tough for alot of people.

[unlucky83]

I agree that the need for qualifications for everything now is a problem and actually stands in people's way.
I think the previous labour governments aim for 50% plus people to go to university has achieved nothing but lowered the value of a degree (and kept youth unemployment figures down). And increased the cost of doing a degree for everyone...thus excluding/discouraging brighter people from poorer backgrounds.
My latest annoyance (here in Scotland at least) is that in order to work with preschool children you have to complete S(N)VQs. I'm not saying that working with children is not important but surely not everyone who works with preschool children is responsible for their education - suitably supervised people don't really need a qualification - except they do! And experience counts for nothing.
I know of an instance of someone who was a single mother at a young age, always worked, often more than one job. They do not have the time or resources for childcare to enable them to do the qualifications. So even though they are good at their job, have done it for years, they are going to have to give up work.
Actually my biggest problem with this is not the poor but the less academic. I worked with children with SEN many years ago. One child was not at all academic, but had managed from the age of 5-6 to get themselves to school. They had lots of practical common sense and very caring personality - I always thought they would be wonderful looking after very young children or old people...but I doubt they'd manage to get the qualification ..
The whole thing makes my blood boil ...the view that a piece of paper is more important than experience or ability - people can be qualified and crap at a job...and if they realise that they then have to get another piece of paper before they can try and see if they are any good at another job...

[Smilesandpiles]

" people can be qualified and crap at a job"

Christ yes.

The number of qualified tradesmen I met through dp (at the time) who were down right fucking dangerous at the job was scary. Really, really scary. They had all the paperwork but zero common sense and respect for the job.

[Dwerf]

Ah yes, the qualifications. I've been a mother over twenty years, I can change a nappy in a minute flat, deal with a tantrumming toddler and take a bunch of kids on a day out without losing any of them but I can't get a job in childcare because I don't have the qualifications or 'the experience'.

ob advisor said to me 'have you thought about cleaning or care work?'. Yes, but I don't have the qualifications or experience for those either.

[Smilesandpiles]

and yet, with no common sense, experience or relevent qualifications you can be in Parliament and run the country into the ground , Hell, you don't even have to do a decent days work growing up.

[Dwerf]

True, I should go into politics, I've always been told I'm excellent at bullshit. (My problem is actually honesty, too honest)

[WooWooOwl]

I agree that people can be qualified but be crap at a job, but there are very good reasons why people who work in childcare settings need to be educators.

Experience and ability are of course very important, but it's still better to have someone looking after children that has those things as well as a qualification. An NVQ L2 is very basic, and is not really enough IMO.

People who work in early years childcare need to be able to implement the EYFS, which goes right up to five years old, so it's no good being great with babies when you don't have the literacy and basic maths skills to be able to stretch a bright four year old.

There is much more to being an early years practitioner than being able to change a nappy quickly and hold on to more than one child on a day out.

[Dwerf]

Woowoo, I know. I'm just being flippant. I'm a grumpyarsed sod. I actually agree with having to have qualifications, and the expierence too. I can understand why, I just get grumpy. The job advisor may smile at me and tell me I have lots of transferable skills, but without the actual qualifications and the proveable experience it seems to mean jack.

[Badvoc]

Even the simplest office job now seems to require a degree...doesn't seem to matter if it's in dance and drama, just any degree will do!
Agree that degrees have become devalued - and some degree courses are just a joke.
Woohoo...yes. It staggers me how bad some of the CMs, nursery nurses and TAs basic knowledge is. I'm talking about basic spelling and grammar.
I know one lady - she is lovely - and works at a pre school. She can hardly spell at all. Carnt for can't etc.
I really support much tougher qualifications for those who teach our kids - and much higher pay too!

[YouTheCat]

I know fully qualified teachers who can't spell or use basic grammar. I know TAs, with degrees, who wouldn't know a proper noun if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.

But these days a good, sound general knowledge and basic skills count for nothing. Schools want all-singing, all-dancing children's entertainers. School has to be fun and jolly.

[unlucky83]

woowoo I have to disagree - I said very specifically if they are suitably supervised. There is a lot more to preschool than changing nappies etc - but then someone has to do that too...and they don't need to be educated to SVQ (NVQ) level 2 or 3. They need to be good with children. If the childcare setting has the correct policies, plans and procedures in place -basically on job training - do they really need the piece of paper? They may never progress up the ladder to be responsible for planning etc and therefore their earning potential may be limited - unless they get the qualifications.
What really really annoys me is the coming need for a degree - a specific degree- to be a playgroup 'manager'. A retired primary teacher or other degree will not be suitable. And the very nature of these jobs are they are part time and not highly paid (and can't be - the money isn't there)
And I don't know if this is just Scotland but the same need for qualifications is being introduced for people who work in care homes etc (by 2020 IIRC) ...and the qualifications aren't measuring people skills or caring ability...

[WooWooOwl]

Agree!

But then I also know TAs who could do the teachers job standing on their heads and to a much higher standard.

[WooWooOwl]

Unlucky, every practitioner should be involved in planning. Where do you think the money is going to come from to employ a nappy changer as well as a practitioner that is capable of being a key worker?

They do need more than just to be 'good with children'.

People can be good with children as well as being qualified, as well as having decent literacy and numeracy skills, along with knowledge of the government legislation that affects children, at the same time as being able to plan and assess while also having some solid knowledge of child development and the various theories surrounding that.

I know that if I was paying someone to care for and educate my children I'd want someone that could do all those things.

It is also right that someone who manages an early years setting has relevant training and experience, a retired primary school teacher who has worked with year six for the last 15 years may well not have a clue about how to deal with an average 3yo.