If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

Oh my goodness..there for the grace of God...

Maryshelly but that would only work if the people you were interviewing for the analysis were telling the truth

*my sister will swear on her life she is a victim of crimstances and looseing 100k plus a car plus and flat could of happend to any one so how will we really find out

Five and Happy (sorry I don't know how to put names in bold type on my phone)!. Yes you're right that I DID earn it through my intelligence and hard work but I do feel it was 'luck' that got me there.

'Luck' that I had two parents from the same impoverished backgrounds who happened to meet each other. Both of my parents had really, really shitty backgrounds. They split up when I was 11 but both do say that although they loved each other, their marriage was initially a way for them both to escape their backgrounds.

My Dad was physically abused by his Step-Dad and my Mum came from a family with lots of drinking and a series of Step-Dads. They are both very bright but never had the opportunity to use that.

It WAS a quirk of fate that two 16 yr olds met each other and both wanted a way out of their home-lives.

It WAS a quirk of fate that they both wanted much more for their own children and worked towards that. Their siblings (three on my Dads side, 5 on my Mums) were less bright I admit but didn't love their children any less. They just didn't see the same importance in education.

Both my parents have little formal education but are really clever people and have always wanted more knowledge and have always read a lot, watched 'educational' documentaries etc. From being tiny, my brother and I looked forward to the weekly trip to the library!. This is in stark contrast to their siblings (a couple of their siblings have genuinely never read books). I think it is luck that these two kids met (In the Top Rank Club in Doncaster!).

Lots still wont work even if the salary equals or is a little more than benefits as they see benefits as the easy option and why bother working of the money is just handed to you every week for doing nothing.

WTC was the worst thing to be introduced, so many quit work to be a SAHP or reduced their hours to the magic 16 to maximise money and minimise working. Thankfully, the criteria for universal credit seems far stricter and hopefully will keep getting tightened up.

Some expect the perfect 10-2 term time only job to land in their laps and others will take anything as long as it brings in a wage. It depends on your morals as to which. Childcare is more readily available than ever yet people still claim they cant possibly be expected to work as they have children.

Where are these 'lots'? Where are these jobs for that matter?

Childcare isn't more readily available. In fact there is very little if you have a disabled child - next to none. But it's get a term time job or survive on the pittance that carer's allowance is.

You really have no idea.

If be interested to know exactly how many were waiting for the perfect 10-2 perfect term time job to come along and turning down anything that doesn't suit when there aren't actually enough jobs out there to actually go round. Did you see the figures of 18k + people applying for around 300 jobs in Hull in 2011?

Cross post cat

There is very very limited availability of child care where I live
Too far from a city or large town
1 nursery £67 a day. My friend is a nurse and cannot afford to use the nursery and that only goes up to school age. Before and after school provision is provided at school but nothing at all in the holidays (unless you count the private school which offers the big school holiday at £250 per week
It is a nightmare trying to arrange school holiday childcare. My DD has SN and cannot cope with some situations and some carers could not cope with her
I wonder sometimes how I have managed to carry on working

stastically and mary agreed and I made the point earlier about 'the poor' not being a homogenous group. I hate it when people aren't seen as nuanced individuals with their own values which is why it is tricky to give a blanket reason for poverty. The reasons are complex.

I must admit, I thought WTC was a fantastic idea when it was introduced. But, yes, I do know a lot of people who cut their hours intentionally and were topped up by the state. Maybe raising the minimum wage would work a lot better.

I think WTC and housing benefit disproportionately benefit the wealthy
They can buy up properties and housing benefit pays the mortgage
WTC allows employers to pay wages that are not livable and give more to share holders

Dh and I have talked endlessly about this...ATM there is no way I could work.
I live in a small village.
I have 2 dc at school (1 just started) so would need term time work.
Dh works away, sometimes at short notice - for example, he is away for half of April :(
I am my mums carer.
How, exactly, do I - and people like me - get a job?
I would like to think I could get back to working at some point but I think it would mean retraining and I will not take on ££££ of debt to do that.
OU courses, for example, have gone up by 400% since the changes to uni fees. They are now out of my reach too.

Yes to everything that SelectAUserName said.

The maximum you can get excluding childcare from WTC is something like £70 it wouldn't entice many people I know to drop to only working the minimum

You cannot automatically assume that someone with a part time job has it because they cannot be bothered to work more. There are lots of possible reasons e.g. They have health issues making working longer hours impossible, they have caring responsibilities (not necessarily by choice could be elderly or disabled relative), it could be the only job they could get.

When job hunting these days an increasing proportion of advertised jobs are part time or worse, zero hours contracts. Some as little as 10hrs per week. It is unfair to call people who've taken these jobs in preference to remaining unemployed lazy or irresponsible. Think about it, once you have a part time job you are still stuck in poverty due to the part time pay. You have to find either a job with more hours to replace it or a second part time job. No matter what you may want to believe your second part time job is harder to find because you have to fit it round the hours of job number one and factor in the time and money for 2 commutes and the increased child care that may involve. Also you have less time to job hunt as you are spending time at work and commuting. Finding your second part time job is further complicated by the I distance of many employers that you be available 24/7 to come in at a moments notice despite only bring paid for a few (or no hours) hours per week. Getting the second job you need to make ends meet and start the long, slow climb out of poverty puts you in breach of contract and in danger of the sack for misconduct. Then the person gets to be called lazy and feckless to add insult to injury.

Having a DH that works away and children doesnt mean you cant work. Yes you would have to pay childcare but thats a cost most parents have to pay.

Thousands of couples and single people manage to work and not term time only. They take the hit on the childcare in the early years if needed.

I refuse to work solely to pay for childcare.

HappyMumofOne - you don't get working tax credits unless you work - the clue is in the name. So it makes no sense to say that people become stay at home parents to claim working tax credits.

HappyMummyOfOne, have you ever considered a career in politics? Your unprejudiced and supportive posts are so incredibly true and moving.*

*There may be an element of sarcasm in my post. I was all set to write something sensible but then read your posts and thought fuck that.

In fact I probably couldn't earn as much as I would pay for childcare....

The problem is not that people want to sit on benefits because it's an easy option but rather that too many jobs simply do not pay enough money for anyone to live on without top ups! It's really not that difficult to understand but some people just don't want to accept it.

SolidGold - excellent posts throughout.

SolidGoldBrassSat 29-Mar-14 02:04:17

There was a time when it was possible to make a decent living doing low-status, unskilled work. It isn't, really, now, and part of this is down to the housing 'boom' and the whole buy-to-let business, which means that just having somewhere to live costs a far, far higher proportion of your earnings than it used to. Another major factor is the way in which unskilled work has become so agency-driven - the agencies cream off a chunk of the money paid by the client (eg the corporation that needs its offices cleaned) hold down the wages of the staff in order to increase profits and treat the employees as disposable. A lot of essential jobs (cleaning, basic care work, catering) are horrendously badly paid, but they have to be done and they can't be outsourced to the developing world where it's OK to pay staff 30p a day, so they are outsourced to agencies and, soon, will be outsourced to workfare.

Quite a while ago i saw an article about how some hospitals are already using workfare.
Nursing homes too. Im willing to bet though that it still would cost the same to have an elderly/disabled relative living in one. So i would imagine a lot of ppl on this thread objecting to paying exorbitant care fees once they find out some of the care workers are on workfare. Or only objecting to workfare once they realise it would/could compromise the care of their elderly relative. The NIMBY attitude in other words. But of course no one on this thread would ever be that hypocritical

If you work full time and earn £600 a month, how exactly will that pay for rent, council tax, bills, food and clothes for even ONE person without children?

Anyone want to suggest how anyone could do that without a top up from somewhere?

Those who are bleating about laziness and those wanting cushy jobs so refuse the more taxing ones, that's you btw happymummy. Can I ask again where this plethora of jobs that the feckless are frivolously disregarding may be found? When official figures show that job seekers outnumber actual jobs by increasing amounts.