If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

morris I agree but love isn't always enough. I think every parent loves their children (well, safely not always) but I think parents who weren't themselves given boundaries, struggle to set boundaries for their own kids which is where parenting support is needed, how to use discipline rut hour shouting, how to support learning etc. parents who never had this will struggle to replicate a good model of parenting and so the disadvantage is passed down.

Sadly not always, that is.

'Without' shouting. Fecking autocorrect.

Read the recent Cheryl Cole thread if you want a true snapshot of how the middle-class masses of Mumsnet view anyone who actually manages to pull themselves out of a sink estate via any route other than the MN-approved university option. She's a "chav" - even worse, a "tattooed chav", a "violent racist thug" (because of one incident over a decade ago when she was 20, where she was actuallly acquitted of the racial element - but mud sticks), she's "talentless" and "not even pretty".

Where's the praise for her determination not to be like the rest of her family? Where's the acknowledgement for the work her charitable foundation now does in the deprived area she originated from? Nowhere. On here, she is viewed as just a jumped-up version of the girls who still inhabit the Scotswood estates, who had the audacity to make something of herself via reality TV.

She's not from Scotswood. She's from Heaton.

It is not about your values changing towards your own DC, it's other people that de-value. For example, parents divorce, he pays no maintenance. She ends up claiming benefits to try and get by. School uniform needs to be bought, she can't afford the school jumper with an eblem as it's 15, so opts to buy a plain one from a supermarket at a few pound instead. Said child has lots of extra curricular support from mum (or dad!) good achiever, top group for English and maths, however, what is happening in school? Said child doesn't look like the others, has a different jumper, other kids notice, and they judge. I bet we can all name the "scruffy" kid in our school, the one without the correct uniform, or the shoes that were too big as they were hand-me-downs, and people pigeonholed them, regardless of how academic and able they were. This judgemwnt and looking down on stems from childhood and it devalues that person and makes them feel worthless, and the cycle continues. It is not that people don't have any values, they have been de-valued by others and this is all they know.

I agree fiveleaves, but that's not a money issue, it's a parenting skills issue.

This thread is arguing on two fronts. One one hand, some are saying that all poor people need is more money/ jobs.

But others say they need intervention, parenting skills, and that money isn't the issue.

I'm willing to bet that every single low income/ food poverty level parent who posts on here is a positive, encouraging parent and not a crap, disengaged waste of space who is setting their kids up to fail. At some point people have to say ok, my own upbringing was shit, but I won't treat my kids like that.

Lol mrsTatum, no worries there. I was the scruffy kid. I had unbranded clothes, shit hair, gray socks, boys jackets etc throughout my childhood. Sure, some local mothers looked down on me. Those women are arseholes. Their opinion didn't matter to me then and it doesn't matter now. No decent person thinks a child is worth less than their own child on the basis of clothing. I was a kind, funny, polite and clever kid. Their kids were boring automatons with no opinions.

I love clothes now, and love dressing my wee boy in cool stuff. But when I see scruffy kids or kids in obvious hand me downs I think it's brilliant, childhood isn't a time for being all judgy about clothes.

I judge luck as lucky to be healthy, lucky to be born in a country where water is plentiful and no one should go hungry. lucky not to live in a repressed society, lucky to have healthy children.

All the rest is material.

You can be poor, (working or on benefits) and still have a keen interest in your child's education, welfare, appearance.

Lack of money does not give you the go ahead to neglect these things. However some parents are lacking in.these skills and require support.

There are children in my dcs class who do not read to their parents, do not have any photographs or write ups in their learning journey books. I know this because I assist once a week and have seen their blank books.

I have heard parents swearing at their children. Their parents probably swore at them, therefore they are just repeating the cycle.

People tend to become their environment. They know no other life.

I know what is is like to be poor. It carries an element of shame. We were well fed, very clean and warm but the feelings are there. I felt like a lesser person, not deserving of the things others have. I hated the pity from friends and family. There is little expectation of you, however we broke the cycle! I still struggle with spending on myself though

If I had the money I would like to work with struggling families who want more from life. Workshops, training, parenting courses, cooking skills, day trips to theatres/museums. I want to make a difference somehow.

"There opinion didn't matter then and it doesn't now" well thats great, and your fortunate to have had the steely determination to keep going in the face of adversity, many don't.

select you're right but I think there is similar contempt for anyone who 'pulls themselves up' via the uni route too. It's an uncomfortable truth that it can be done and rankles people when you can't be placed into a convenient box. Meritocracy is for many, best left as a theory as people think you're smug if you actually do it! I don't get the hate for Cheryl Cole.
I think maybe people resent success stories even if they wouldn't admit it. It's hard to hear that you can better yourself if you are struggling to.

I think there is a tendency to remove power from the poor by grouping them together as a bunch of victims but it doesn't help them. The government are removing the opportunities for people to help themselves though.

woowoo there are thousands of people who look down on the poor.

Even at my lowest points I've never stopped working at something even if that's just been job hunting. I've never stopped valuing education and I've done without in order to get things for my dc. I've even gone without food in the past. None of this has stopped people making vile comments making it clear what they think of me, that I disgust them and some don't even consider me a proper human being. As I said in my previous post I've received a flaming for smoking and drinking too much even though I'm poor. An unfair flaming because I do neither.

Even now, when things aren't as bad as they were I'm still looked down upon and the vile comments don't stop. I suspect they never will, they'll just change slightly. In the unlikely event I became a millionaire I suspect that there would be people keen to remind me if the bad days and why I don't deserve what I now have. Despite all the rhetoric and vile comments the proper, better people want the poor to know their place and stay there. It makes them feel more secure, gives them someone to demonise and have fun slagging off. Can't have us being uppity and not conforming to stereotypes can we?

Some people have health issues which stop them working.

Some have parents who didnt bring them up to value working for whatever reason.

Some become redundant and cant get another job.

Some work their arses off for a low wage and then struggle with the massive cost of living.

Am absolutely sick of people on MN, usually young with well off parents, who have never been poor in their lives, but bray on about the feckless poor.

thereishop that's just it. I grew up feeling like a lesser person and vowed never to experience that as an adult. I don't look down on people claiming benefits but I never want to feel that shame I had growing up (it isn't shameful but that's how it felt when other kids at school were well off). I never wanted to sit in the housing office because there is a shortfall in HB, pawning wedding rings to buy food, walking everywhere not for exercise but because mum couldn't afford the bus.

Poverty is crippling, it's tiring and it's not something that people choose. I dragged myself out and others do but there are reasons why it isn't always possible. Mental health, disability, death of loved ones, job loss, benefits sanctions. Sometimes people just lose hope and we need to protect the vulnerable not vilify them.

However, it's true that some people refuse help, make poor decisions, have kids they are unable to raise properly etc etc and that is frustrating. Have no solution to that. Nobody does.

Some struggle with the cost of housing ot relationships split up.

There are endless reasons why people could become poor. And anyone on here is not exempt.

Morris There are a few scruffy children at my dcs school. Their coats look like they need washing and their trousers are unhemmed, holes in their tights/socks. Their parents look just as scruffy with greasy hair. Perhaps they have had a breakdown/are not coping with motherhood or life/ do not see the point in looking presentable. They look downtrodden

Without sounding patronising I would like to give them make overs, dress them in nice clothes and send them to a posh restaurant for a night out.

I am in no way a fashion victim with oodles of clothes. I promised myself as a child that despite my circumstances I will never let myself go, appearance wise. Years of school bullying about my appearance affected me badly.

Some people just don't prioritise how they look.

Doesnt mean they are downtrodden or bad parents. It's just different priorities.

My mum didnt have money but tried to always give me fashionable clothes. I still got bullied constantly.

I do get irritated when people say it's not possible to escape the cycle, because it is. I was that scruffy kid at school. On the flip side my niece -very close age wise- was much cooler much more accepted and popular. We both came from similar backgrounds, single parent mums on benefits, same estates, same schools. But our lives have taken such totally different paths -I fought to get out via the uni route and have a good job, good prospects, settled home life etc
She's a single mum, unemployed, living pretty much where we grew up. On paper we had similar chances - so what is it that made me motivated enough to get out, but her not.

Different priorities?

Do people really don't know that there are not jobs for unskilled people anymore. Well there are but the competition is fierce. It is not like our days!
I did like the poster above: uni and work. Todays students can not find work easily.

When i was young i lost my job once. The next day i went with my boyfriend to get something from the supermarket. While at the till i turned to him and said 'i can do this' , then i asked the cashier about vacancies. She told me to check the board by the exit. I did find vacancies, i asked to speak to the manager, he took me into the office. I was wearing leggings and flip flops andi said to him: 'me want work here', he asked why and i said 'me like many people around, me like talking, ha ha ha'. He told me to go back at clising time, i went in the same leggings, got the job, started working next day. At the same time the Agencies were begging me togo back to nannying because they were desperate for nannies.
Ok now i have 2 nieces here who look for job. They are not lazy. Can they do what i did? Can they? One of them went to an open day at supermarket. She came home crying, she felt not good comparing to the other applicants. Most of them with degrees, dressed in suits, very articulate.
If she broke down-a very confident girl who is lucky to have a relative here and i do feed her- what is going to happen to a girl who is shy, not very bright, who doesnt have family? God help them.
It is not the same like our days, you cant get jobs in the way we did.

Different ability at school?

Different chances?

Going to uni isn't necessarily a route out of poverty.