If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

usually said by narrowminded twats that do not realise how lucky they have been

I totally agree with the OP that poverty is not the fault of the poor. And that the majority of wealthy people are so through routes which are entirely devoid of personal merit or hard work.

But I genuinely don't understand people who get so angry about the tips given to try and improve your situation. We've had some years on very low income and those 'eke out a chicken' recipes do help you eat well on next to no money. And it was possible to bring in extra cash by babysitting and cleaning etc.

It wasn't in any way a solution long term, and tbh doing all that drudgery work felt very demoralising when you have professional qualifications and the drudgery leaves you physically whacked and not much better off than if you'd sat at home, feet up watching homes under the hammer. But it was better than nothing at the time.

YY newdawn!

Sometimes the only thing that keeps me from snapping or breaking down each and every time a comment is uttered, printed or thrown about (including the "oh, but not you, your different" get out clause) is knowing, that all it takes is ONE diagnosis. ONE affair. ONE beating. ONE accident or ONE job loss and everything that all you smug, sneering, judgemental, ignorant and "lucky" arseholes have worked for, earnt or inherited will come crashing down around your ears overnight.

There is NOTHING to say that in a few hours time, you could be looking at living the life you've been looking down your noses at for so long.

So, unless you can be absolulty sure and safe guard against every single possible outcome that you will still be up there on your high horse when the shit hits the fan you should shut the fuck up, keep your nose out of other peoples business and if you can, do something human and actually offer help or even better, offer someone a decently paid job.

Reading threads like these, the benefit bashing threads, the newspapers, the government policies, the work situation and eevrything else that is thrown about does a hell of lot more damage than anyone realises.

Sometimes it really does seem as though everyone WANTS the jobless to fail at everything they do. Why else would you keep knocking their confidence as aspirations back time and time again? So you can feel better about yourselves? Your "luck"? or your "hard work"? I mean god help them if they actually became sucessful at something and ended up in a better position than you.

WooWooOwl I don't think it's as black and white as cutting off benefits and access to (pretty disgusting, in many cases) social housing. The reasons why people in the so-called "underclass" have ended up in the situation they're in are myriad, complex, deep-rooted and have developed over time and the solutions, whatever they may be, need to reflect that. Education, and particularly education of young girls, is the key - and I don't just mean teaching them French and maths. I mean teaching them about self-worth, self-respect, how to identify and report the signs of abuse/DV.

It's difficult to trumpet the benefits of education as a way out of the five-children-by-four-different-dads lifestyle when we have such an increasing sector of "working poor". When you're asking people to essentially turn their back on their environment, to reject what they know as the norm, to try a new approach, but all you can promise them at best is more of the same - top-up benefits, housing costs as a massive proportion of their income, expensive childcare, scrimping and pinching and food banks, can you blame anyone for saying "err, why bother?"

But the answer isn't to cut them off at the knees for not working under current circumstances, the answer is to make working the financially viable solution, and that means tackling things like corporate tax loopholes, minimum wage versus living wage, zero contracts, unpaid internships etc. Carrot, not stick.

Fiveleaves, what interests me about your post, your situation is - what was it in you, in your personality, that gave you that drive? Do you have siblings who are still trapped by poverty? Can you imagine having been born into the same conditions but without the combination of brain and personality type that enabled you to get out?

I admire you enormously but I don't think that because some people are absolutely remarkable and can get out, that everyone can follow suit. People like you are remarkable because you are rare. What do we as a compassionate society do to help those who are not rare. Who are ordinary, have low physical energy or below average intelligence?

One of the points which I think is often overlooked is that for many people to access some of the help available to them, they need to interact with "authority", in an environment where the "authorities" have usually been figures of distrust. Overcoming that distrust, the conditioning that everyone is out to screw you over, to arrest you/fine you/try to take your benefits off you/take your kids off you/get money out of you/generally do you down in some way takes a massive leap of faith.

We need to be far franker as a society about who the scroungers are, anyway. Who is the scrounger: the single parent family on 30k of benefits or the landlord who charges 20k a year for that family to live in a poky flat, and still be broke and scrabbling for food, because they are living on 10k a year.

My understanding is that it is much harder these days to lift yourself out of poverty.

My DH grew up in a very poor household - latchkey kid from an early age as DM out working, both worked hard but made some poor decisions around finances. Both DH and DSIL managed to get into grammar school and have done really well for themselves. DBIL from the same family had a year of illness and failed the 11+ and as I posted earlier, lives on the poverty line due to current illness and lack of suitable work.

I doubt that today the same opportunity would exist for DH or DSIL due to the scrapping of the grammars. I don't understand why successive governments feel that this is a good decision.

Smiles, only the very very ignorant and small minded look down on people who are poor but who also have a good attitude and are genuinely doing the best they can for themselves and their children.

It is simply not true to say that all it takes is one job loss, one affair, one diagnosis etc and everything will come crashing down to the point that people no longer care about their children's education or behaviour or attitudes.

Because it isn't actually all about money. People who judge generally don't look down on people just because they are poor. They look down on people who buy themselves luxuries while their children go without. They look down on people who allow their children to swear and stay up all night eating crisps. They look down on people who can't be bothered to get their children to school on time or do their homework with them. It's about attitude, not money.

So I firmly believe that if DH or I lost our job, or if DH hit me or had an affair, or if one of us become ill, we would not automatically become contributors to the cycle of deprivation that is so prevalent, because our attitude to work and education would remain the same.

"Because it isn't actually all about money"

Yes. Yes it is.

" People who judge generally don't look down on people just because they are poor. They look down on people who buy themselves luxuries while their children go without. They look down on people who allow their children to swear and stay up all night eating crisps. They look down on people who can't be bothered to get their children to school on time or do their homework with them. It's about attitude, not money."

You are deluded if you think this.

" because our attitude to work and education would remain the same."

LMFAO. Thanks for completely ignoring my point though.

Likewise Smiles

And there, in a nutshell in WooWooOwl's post, is the definition of "lucky" in action.

Does it never occur to you to wonder why people do the things you "look down on", instead of jumping to conclusions and judging them? Does it never occur to you that some parents don't have sufficient education themselves to be able to help their children with their homework? Do you ever stop to consider how incredibly privileged you are to be able to do so, and to be able to construct a coherent paragraph to post on this website on the subject? Do you ever stop to consider how lucky you are to have a (presumably) supportive and hands-on DH to help raise your even luckier children, rather than an absent babyfather who disappeared the minute the blue line on the test appeared, or is in prison, or dead from a drugs overdose?

If you think that everyone here is arguing that it is "all about money" then you obviously haven't read all the posts.

I think cottonwool as others have said that it was a combination of wanting better for myself and seeing how little hope there was for many I grew up alongside and as you mentioned, being academic. I used study to escape as many in similar situations would use more harmful ways to escape. I think I just had aspiration and went to college and had friends whose parents were well travelled, working as lawyers, social workers, lecturers and really aspired to their lives. Just to live in a nice Victorian semi, with a rewarding job and a few holidays a year and evenings at the theatre! That's all I wanted, a boring middle class life. I didn't want the police knocking on the door, domestic violence, visiting family in prison, moving every few years, struggling from one benefit cheque to the next as my mum did.

I agree with you though. I don't expect everyone to be like this. I have worked with some of the most vulnerable in society through my day job in the voluntary sector and give generously to charities working in anti-poverty.

You can work hard and get qualified but it only takes a few bits of bad luck to lose everything. Workfare, zero hours contracts, unscrupulous landlords buying up all the houses pricing first time buyers out etc. all pretty shit and keeping people poor.

I just wanted to challenge the 'lucky' assumption.

fiveleaves do you claim child benefit and working tax credit?

People do those things for many reasons, but mostly because it's what they know from their own upbringings. Which is why those things will continue as long as society enables people who are not in work, who are not employable and who don't have basic skills to continue having children they cannot provide for.

I don't think it was luck that led me to have a decent ex to parent with, it was judgement. I might be lucky to have the intelligence to make a worthwhile judgement, but it wasn't luck that led him, or I, to be decent parents. It was the attitudes of our own parents, and their parents before them. But you don't have to go back as far as our grandparents to see true, grinding poverty.

Both of us have parents that were born into poverty and deprivation.

"I don't think it was luck that led me to have a decent ex to parent with, it was judgement. I might be lucky to have the intelligence to make a worthwhile judgement, but it wasn't luck that led him, or I, to be decent parents"

Do you have any idea how insulting that is? You may think you have good judgement but it's coming across at all.

I'm done respoding to your posts. You clearly don't have a clue.

sparkly no, not eligible I wouldn't have thought. I know what you're getting at and didn't men to come across as anti benefits. I don't have an anti benefits stance and would always encourage others to claim their entitlements.

I agree with WOowoo a hundred percent. I know I'm lucky. I could lose my health, my job, my relationship at any time and then I'd be struggling to cope like so many others. But I wouldn't become a person I had previously looked down on, because I don't look down on people with low incomes.

I grew up in a low income household. I was on a low income throughout my twenties. But at no point did I or my low income parents decide that our values had changed, or that our aspirations for ourselves or our kids were now null and void. And my aspirations and values would remain intact regardless of any change in financial circumstances.

I have family members who have been through cancer, job loss, bitter divorce, major domestic crises involving emergency house moves etc. But all children involved have remained secure, loved, encouraged, respected and listened to. That stuff is free.

Don't project the daily mail on me. I don't read that shit, or watch poverty porn tv shows. I'm no more a gullible slave to the media than the clever people on this thread who think they're uniquely blessed with critical thinking. I can think and see for myself. Most people in the UK did not vote for the current government either, and do not swallow unquestioningly whatever shite Cameron comes out with. Statements saying that we're all just falling for propaganda are bloody insulting.

"But I wouldn't become a person I had previously looked down on, because I don't look down on people with low incomes. "

That doesn't matter. YOU will be looked down upon by those who used to be your equal and it's that that will get to you and maybe then, you will understand.

Of course its judgment not luck re choosing a partner.

The amount of people who get pregnant by a man they have known for weeks or monthths is astounding. They cant possibly know the person well enough to have a child with them. I'm sure theu will claim its an "accidental" pregnancy but every adult knows what sex can result in and contraception can be doubled so its virtually impossible odds then for it to fail.

No relationship is cast iron but being with somebody long term before having children gives you the knowledge to decide if they will make a good parent even if you split.

I don't agree. I know loads of people who have been down on their luck, and none of their friends, family or colleagues looked down on them. I was on benefits for a year after graduating, nobody looked down on me or made me feel shit. Or made me want to stop bothering with life. If Tory voters or DM readers want to judge then good luck to them, their opinion counts for zip in my book.

But it was pretty rubbish having so little money. I was glad to finally get a job.

Happymummy, that is bollocks. I got pregnant to my husband, who I'd been with for 5 years. He turned into an abusive alcoholic. Didn't see that coming.

Yup, the old 'falling pregnant' trope.

I'm not in the business of telling people if they can or can't have kids, society has to keep its beak out of that. But I know so, so many people who have wilfully ignored all the available evidence and had kids with somebody who clearly will not make a good father.

They have rationalised it etc and ultimately of course it's up to them. But we do all have some degree of control over who we live with and have kids with. It's a bit crap to suggest we don't.