If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

You should be proud Derek as it sounds like you are working hard to improve your situation and move into paid work. Good luck with the diploma. People do change, you're right.

Great Derek. But do it for yourself and don't worry what judgy folk think

My DD went all the way through high school with a lovely friend, similar grades, similar enthusiasms. DD has us for parents: working class kids made good in the days of free university education and the boom of the labour years. Lovely friend has nice disabled mum who lives on benefits with a string of dodgy boyfriends. So far so good.

And then they get to 16 and DD goes to local college that gives her the best chance of getting good A levels. Friend goes to local crappy college cos she can't afford the bus fare. DD gets part time job after much hunting, friend is discouraged from bothering to work for one day a week. DD is doing well at her A levels, friend drops out of college: she can get carer allowances for her mum.

Now my DD is on the way to hopefully a good future. Lovely friend sits at home smoking and drinking with unemployed neighbours, up half the night because she no reason to get up in the morning. The friendship is fizzling out. DD and lovely friend have little in common now. Lovely friend seems happy to have the sort of hand to mouth life her mother has had.

I just don't know what the answer is.

I would imagine she dropped out because she had to CARE for her mum. Not to get the benefits.

The answer..make life easier for carers to work.

Not roll them out as examples of feckless poor.

thereishope I disagree with that point.. I come from a single parent family. I got a job the minute I left school and also went on to University. My Dsis has worked for the last 10years. :)

Fanjo I'm not rolling her out as an example of the feckless poor. I'm rolling her out as an example of someone who should be having the same sort of future as my DD but probably won't.
As regards the caring, her Mum managed okay all the time she was in high school and while she was away on holiday for a month with grandparents abroad.
Maybe more money could have kept her in education, (I think ESA was a good thing) but it is more poverty of aspiration. She gets to go out a lot, new stuff from Primark, she is able to do this much more than my DD. But it is all short term. And neither she nor her immediate family seem to get that.

I get what you were saying moomin. I think fanjo is sort of saying that there is always a reason / excuse for being poor which is really depressing and suggests that people are trapped and can't escape which doesn't give people a lot of credit.

ESA would gave helped in your example. It is really sad because long term finishing education will help. Poverty of aspiration and limited ambition is a real shame and keeps people in a cycle of poverty. Caring responsibilities are tough though but young careers need help to stay in education if that's what they want.

Fanjo is not saying there is always a reason at all. I think she's trying to counter the mutual back slapping of how if you can do it anyone can and it's all down to poor judgement that this thread has descended in to.

I hope none of you ever have to find out how close you are to the poverty line, I really do.

There's a lot of talk about how you broke the cycle at school by working hard blah blah blah but not much about success stories after major disastrous life events.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-the-rich-were-so-rich-vimes-reasoned

Similar example:
Our lovely downstairs neighbour has just been evicted through no fault of her own. She had no where to put her sofa, so it has been left in our hallway. Likelihood is that she won't be able to reclaim it before the managing agents remove it (not allowed to store things in communal areas).

So, when she finally gets somewhere to live for her family, they'll have to buy a new one.

I'm a single parent with two dc with autism, after a few years of marriage my ex decided he didn't want to be married and committed after all and off he went. He's in the Far East right now "on business", he makes very little contribution to parenting though does pay child support so I am luckier than many. So tell me how can I break the cycle and pull myself up? I am all ears.

Sorry I missed out your passive aggressive use of the word "excuse" there five

sparkly we have been below the poverty line. I think you are being defensive. Nobody is saying 'if I can do it anyone can'. I have repeated the opposite. I just don't like the poor bring presented as a homogenous mass of victims with no agency or self motivation.

I can't go into my disastrous life events as they will out me but if you read my posts you will get an idea. FFS. It includes suicide, prison, death of a parent and more besides. Some people just do well after being dealt a bad hand. Sorry. Deal with it. Uncomfortable for you clearly, to think that some people have the grit to do this.

and some people do make excuses, some people don't because everyone is different. 'The poor' are individual people with different values.

I'm not being defensive I just don't think you are being at all realistic and are applying YOUR situation to the masses, which I find extremely limited.

Any ideas for my situation yet?

Sounds like you have had some bad luck but you can't see any other POV due to that massive chip on your shoulder.

But I have said that my situation is fairly unique and I don't expect everyone to be able to do that...have you read all the posts?

What chip? I don't agree with you and I've asked for ideas. I welcome them. You generally advocate that if you can do it antine can, now tell me how I can?

I'm not saying "if anyone can do it" either - I was more trying to say that maybe we need to try to understand the factors which make the difference so that we can try to emulate them.

There are people who are poor because of circumstances they have faced in their adult life - disability, abuse, lots of other reasons which have been mentioned on this thread which I won't repeat. But there are also people who are poor and have always been poor - not because any significant event or series of events has happened to them which has caused them to be poor but because they grew up poor and never "escaped."

Wanting to try and work out how we can improve the situation for the latter group and break that cycle of deprivation where it exists does not mean that you're judging, looking down on people or stereotyping.

That's not really how your posts are reading, I think it's the "proud not to have claimed benefits" point you made. Why are you proud?

I am just pleased that through my hard work and provision I have made for myself financially that I haven't had to experience claiming benefits which blighted my childhood and made me feel different to my peers. I think few people want to claim and in a world where the minimum wage was higher, childcare cheaper, support available for careers to be able to work they wouldn't need to. But for many such as single parents there is no other option.

You have stated that you are not from a poor background so won't understand working class pride. You have had some bad luck and it has clearly made you bitter. I have had bad luck and it has given me the empathy and insight to enable me to help others which is what I do in my day job.

Its extremely tough to be a single parent. Nobody realistically expects you to wave a wand and 'better yourself' with two kids to look after. But are you a disengaged, uninterested parent? I'm guessing not.
You probably do all you can to ensure your kids have every possible opportunity to learn and to develop into decent adults. The cycle is broken because you're a good parent.

Careers not careers

FFS CARERS!

Derek you've obviously got the drive to deal with your situation really well. Would you encourage your kids to start a family at a young age?