to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

Clanger do you feel parents at the school gate shouldn't have personal conversations with each other?

It is definitely the case that some people who lament their lack of friends unfortunately lack social skills.

My own general rule is that if I want to have a personal, private conversation with someone, I don't do it in a busy social space, such as the canteen, the middle of the room at someone else's party or somewhere where lots of other people I/we know will be milling about. I am not that self-important to think that other people should defer to my conversation instead of pursuing normal social activites.

If it's properly private, it normally happens over the phone.

TBH the most school gate chat I ever did was things like "hello" and "how are you and your kids" and sometimes arranging activities. DH did the school pickup and dropoff when DD was little and sometimes said that the school gate "wasn't a very male-friendly space".

I sometimes see parents having clearly private conversations at playgroup. I just assume they have no other opportunity to have the conversation and I'm glad they have someone to offload to.

It all depends on what else happens. If a mutual friend of theirs came along and said "hi", and they exchanged pleasantries before getting back to what they were talking about, fine. If the friend then got a load of huffing and tutting about "interRUPting a private converSAYSHUN!", then they are acting like mardy schoolgirls and being self-important dicks.

The keyword is "private". If it's really private, don't do it in public.

Do people really do that Clanger? And if they do then it's no great loss to leave them to it, surely, seeing as they are so idiotic?

I think friendships that grow organically and are formed on mutual interests and sense of humour etc. can develop from school pick ups very well. It happened to me with both DD and DS. Perhaps we were perceived as a "clique" by onlookers, but it was never intended and I certainly never felt I excluded anyone who was kind and pleasant. I did however blank a couple of women who were known to be troublemakers and stirrers and had caused heartache for a good friend.

I don't get this "Wendy" thing either. If you introduce a friend to an established group, you have to accept that their friendship might take off in ways you didn't expect. Nobody has copyright or ownership of a friend and shouldn't expect them to defer to the original friend every time they want to make an arrangement.

CailinDana. Read books about cliques. Then you will understand all you need to know about them.
Since you are so confused about the matter, and because of your job, I think that that is what you need to do - for your own piece of mind, rather than for anything else.

I was bullied terribly at school so had a very unhappy upbringing with a mother who would never stick up for me/rock the boat at school or even be supportive when I was upset, so it carried on. I grew up therefore thinking I must have deserved this treatment I seemed to draw from others.
I am ok now and know I didn't deserve it and that it wasn't my fault and that my mum just was of the generation that didn't make a fuss to a teacher or doctor and generally bowed down to authority and not falling out with the neighbours blah blah and didn't like to stick their head above the parapet/make a fuss.
But in a nano second of walking into an office where there is a 'cliquey' atmosphere or to a party where I only know the host and everyone else is in groups and no-one is taking any notice of me (and yes I do smile/say hello etc etc) I can become that five year old girl again. I have tried to rationalise it as you have OP that these people are just a group of good friends but I don't think unless you have been in my situation or similar that you can truly understand exactly how hostile this 'cliquey' behaviour can feel to the outsider.
I wish more people would try like you do OP to say 'come on in' to the shy or quiet ones. I would've bit your hand off had I been in your group.

Bluepen you seem keen to direct me elsewhere. But I'm happy here, I'm finding the thread interesting. If you have any light to shed on cliques I'd be interested to hear it. I say the playgroup is my "job" but in fact it's entirely voluntary. I also have a paid job.

I had assumed that your looking for answers were genuine.

Yes it is bluepen. I am also enjoying the thread.

Bahhhhumbug has explained the issue very well.

I, too, am really enjoying this thread and finding it very interesting.

I think that self esteem can definitely play a huge part in peoples' perception about friendship groups.

I find the idea of cliques baffling over he age of about 14. However some people are just fucking bitchy.

Having said that I do SORT of agree with some of the elements of the OP and other posts. A girl I know, for example is always whinging on fb that nobody cares about her/her baby/her life yet and expects people to constantly want to be her friend. She's nice enough but just because I'm not asking her a thousand times a day how she is doesn't mean I don't care/am a bitch/don't want to be her friend.
I find people who need constant reassurance and approval of the friendship fucking exhausting and they are always the ones who cry 'clique!'

Good points there, greatgatsby.

Yes, some people are most definitely fucking bitchy. And as we all tend to seek out like minded individuals to be friends with, it makes sense that there are groups (cliques!!) of bitchy friends.

I too am not keen on friends that want constant validation and reassurance. It's draining. I had to distance myself from a friend that wanted daily contact (text/facebook message/long phone calls), and was so demanding and such hard work that it was almost like having a 2nd relationship to juggle and balance each day.

There seems to be something of a double standard too - shy and quiet people can suit themselves in terms of who they talk to and when they are sociable whereas confident peoplehave a duty to include everyone and make an effort to form friendships.

I think some super-shy people do just sit back and wait for others' to make the effort, but I am guessing it is just lack of confidence that makes them that way?

I have a friend who is very quiet and shy, and is absolutely lovely. However the only time I see her is when I make arrangements. She is just very unconfident and would never make plans with people for fear of rejection I guess. We've been friends now for nearly 10 years, and I am virtually her only friend but she just finds it too hard to make any effort herself.

I sympathise with very shy people, it must be very hard. But it does irk me when someone makes little or no effort and then acts like it's everyone else's fault that they don't have friends.

Actually come to think of it my friend is a little like this. She doesn't moan about cliques but it's more things of "I'd like to have a night out but no one invites me" and that kind of thing.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I am fairly quiet compared to very loud people, but I do try to make the effort and to chat to people etc.

I'm not loud but I am confident. However that does not mean I am totally thick-skinned and immune to rejection. I won't plough effort into getting to know someone indefinitely with no reciprocation.

I have various friendship groups from work, my old work, school gates and a hobby. This is because I havelived in one place a long time. I am introverted and extremely anxious. I have very poor social perception. I find it hard enough to be a reasonable friend to the people I already know. I really don't have the ability to spot who feels left out or the emotional resources to deal with more people other than on a level of basic courtesy. People who already know me well accept I may make no contact for a while and not take it personally. Some of the examples mentioned on here of people needing constant attention to feel included I just could not deal with. The fact that I have friends and am not shy doesn't stop me having all the issues of being an extreme introvert. There are a lot of assumptions about the character of strangers on this thread.

Cheese, does your friend maybe think that she would be intruding on your time by trying to make plans? Because I have had the same criticism, that I don't initiate plans enough and expect other people to. The problem is, I have had a few experiences of what I thought were happy friendships but which have turned into the other person (or another of their friends) ranting about how needy and demanding I am, that I don't want subsequent friendships to go the same way. It's hard to strike a balance when you have been given grief for straying a tiny bit too far either way.

Quacks I've had people ranting at me about things too. It hurts but it doesn't change my behaviour. Now, if a friend comes to me and says "look when you did this I felt this..." I am totally happy to listen and make adjustments if I can. But ranting or telling me I'm this way or that way? Fuck off thank you. No one has the right to say "you're needy." They have every right to say your behaviour makes them uncomfortable but it's not for them to pass judgement on your personality.

Yup, that's what you would be encouraged to think, if you went along to a cognitive behavioural therapist.

I don't like CBT. It tries to get you to see things in a different way even if what you thought in the first place was actually unpleasant, but correct.

Would you argue Portofino that it's ok for shy people to keep to themselves while confident people have a sort of duty to talk to everyone?

I'd argue that if shy people are expected to make an effort to be more outgoing, then outgoing people should in return make an effort to see things from a shy person's point of view as well. It shouldn't just be one-sided and neither personality is better/worse than the other.