to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

Interesting that so many people have responded to this thread. Its hard, I have a few friends that Im very close to at the school gate but we try not to stand together all the time so we don't become cliquey and we always talk to whoever is around. However, we do ( the four of us) meet up on our own every so often without inviting the other mums we know and like just because there are private things we only feel comfortable discussing between ourselves. We do however do nights out with others aswell. I am friendly to everyone and will always make an effort with anyone standing alone but it is also hard when you have a busy life and are desperate to catch up with....... to always do the right thing and scan for people being on their own. I do also think its a joint responsibility. As someone that isn't socially shy, I do make a big effort with those that are but I do get a bit fed up with all the 'its alright for you coments' you have lots of friends that I sometimes get. It is a 2 way street, noone should leave anyone out deliberately but by the same token everyone should make the effort. There are some people who are deliberately unpleasant unfortunately but I think they are in the minority; most people have no desire to leave anyone out or cause upset but don't have the time to continually chase people who are shy and maybe have been burnt before.

Cailin, I think you are being encouraged to read books on this because it is the case that cliques and actively exlusionary behaviour do exist, and you seem to be asserting that they don't, and that all instances of apparent cliquishness are actually quite alright and explainable. Given that social scientists have put the work in to write about this, and given that you might find it easier to take it in when quantified rather than the dismissive "lack of social skills" hand waving that can wave away anecdotal accounts of people being subject to nastiness and cliquiness, it might help you to read them.

It might be the case that you have never come across or noticed genuine cliquiness but it does exist and I think there is a level of frustration from some that you appear to be insisting it doesn't.

What is odd about this is that you make it clear that you are quite proud of not being cliquey - you have repeatedly made it clear that you could never be accused of anything like this, making the effort at toddler group even when you are not well etc - yet at the same time as highlighting this as something which takes effort and is to be proud of, you seem to be implying that the opposite never ever happens, oh no, never, not by you, nor by anyone else. Make your mind up, which is it?

As with everything of course, so many cases are a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other - but that doesn't mean that cliqueiness doesn't exist. It does.

On another subject - CBT - I believe, giving it the benefit of the doubt, that done properly it doesn't try to make you believe things that aren't true. However, as hunreeeal says, I think it is very often used to discredit genuine concerns and for some patients this is very very bad. I think where guilt is a part of depression CBT, done in a certain way, is actively harmful because it can be "heard" by the patient to be sending messages like: it's all your fault; you are seeing things wrongly and you are wrong; if you worked harder to think "right", you wouldn't be like this.

There is some research that shows that statistically most people over estimate their talents and attributes, ie, something like 80% of people believe themselves to be above average at social skills. This is of course statistically impossible. Depressed people tend to have a more realistic view of things. I think rose tinted glasses are perhaps a necessary part of being functional. But it doesn't mean that arguing yourself into seeing rose-tinted means that you are seeing what is really there, and the loss of authenticity required to do this can in itself be pyschologically damaging

by the way CBT carried out properly ( ie not by someone who has just done a CBT course) should never discredit genuine concerns. Where it does , it is being carried out by an inexperienced or poor therapist......

I think you're right OP. I don't think that I have ever encountered a clique, not even when I was at school myself.

Yet to read MN you'd think they were everywhere. As an easygoing and inclusive sort of person, who doesn't much mind whether people like me or not (I've got friends and family enough) I suspect that I just don't interpret groups of friends as cliques.

All the 'cliches don't really exist' remarks seem very similar to the 'there's no bullying at this school' statements made by two of the parents of children that were actually involved in bullying my child; one of which had been spoken to by the headteacher after a serious incident of bullying.

Her son is 'a strong character' according to the mum. Not a bully that destroys my daughters work and possessions, steals from her and knocks her over.

Perhaps for her, her child isn't bullied therefore there is no bullying at the school?

And is it pronounced 'click' or a 'cleek'?

All the books written and studies done, but since the op has not come across one, they dont exist.

cliques not cliches....

my spelling is appalling!

blueballoon, so sorry you've encountered this. Glad you've been able to move on. I can't understand what motivates women to behave in that way and whilst I still believe they are in the minority, they def exist!

Thank you Laura, I agree they definitely exist! Thankfully though you're right and they do appear to be in the minority. The other Mums I speak to have friendship groups but they don't exclude everyone else who isn't a part of it and are friendly to everyone. It's not a big deal to just smile and say hello to others.

The thing that really helped me get over it was by telling myself I was better than them

There's no way I would ever stoop so low as to treat someone so badly and in such a childish way. At the time though there's no denying it affected me terribly.

For the record I have only come across one.
Someone I know[not me] found themselves on the outskirts of one. Didnt quite understand at first what was going on. Bought a book. Then understood the whole thing.

Blueballoon, this strikes me as really extreme:

" For two days I pretended my daughter was ill and didn't take her to the school as I couldn't bear the exclusion by this group."

It seems to me that maybe people who enjoy running this sort of clique can identify people who will be hurt by it and make them targets. Other people - the shruggers - may never become aware that people can behave like this.

I am somewhere in between. I am definitely a shrugger now. I have changed and become more confident and whether through cause and effect, chicken or egg, am never troubled these days by feelings of exclusion etc. I am too busy apart from anything else, to have any time to notice that people aren't including me.

It is a very long time since I would have avoided going somewhere because of a feeling of not being liked. Nowadays, if I had time, I think I would wind that group up. I would take delight in exposing their patheticness; get all up in their faces, asking endless chirpy questions about their weekends, pretending not to know what was going on. (on some level they must know this and this is why things like this don't happen to me)

At one time I would have had to psych myself up to facing them, would have dressed very carefully and had knots in my stomach and would have timed things to have to overlap with them as little as possible. Actually taking your daughter out of school for two days is extreme. In the nicest possible way, have you had any help with this?

Oh they definitely target the vulnerable.

I don't think anyone's claiming that there is no such thing as a clique, ever, only that accusations of cliquishness, and the misery and anger caused by a perception of other people's cliquish behaviour, are over-represented statistically on Mn in a way that has become a slightly self-fulfilling prophecy, I think, just because the term has become something of a buzz-word and has given people a vocab to slot their experiences into. (Which is both good for obvious reasons, and also bad, because I think it can lead to over-perception of exclusionary behaviour, maybe...?)

I thought CailinDana's perspective was interesting, even refreshing, for a change, as she was speaking from within the 'in-group', but in a way that suggested both a basic kind-heartedness and social generosity AND a desire to place responsibility for social dynamics on everyone's shoulders, including those inside and outside the group.

(I say this as someone who has moved around the world for large chunks of my adult life, and has recently been experiencing the strange world of baby and toddler groups in Middle England - I am by definition an outsider rather than an insider, and am used to arriving in a new place where I know no one at all.

I have the advantage over many other people in that I've made my way many times before and know I can do it again, and that I'm a self-reliant person who is pleased by welcoming behaviour, but never expects it - but I do feel it is no one's responsibility to ease my path socially in a new situation.)

I don't want to do a social version of victim blaming, but I do think people grant the idea of the 'in-group' or clique far too much power in their own minds.

To me, cliquey is deliberately ignoring people not in your 'group' who you haven't even given a chance to get to know.

That is just narrow minded and unfriendly IMO.

I am on the PTA (I know I know) and we have been accused of being cliquey. This is unfair - there are about 5 of us that are daft enough to go along to the meetings so get landed with organising events/fund raising. We didn't know each other before and only speak about school stuff we are arranging, we don't socialise together or anything really. Feedback from some parents (big school 500 kids) is that in order to appear non cliquey the PTA (ie me) has to go around and personally speak to every parent and ask them personally to volunteer.

I am quite socially confident but this fills me with dread . Thought of this OP and her question as to how far are those perceived as being in a "clique" are required to go to befriend/involve others?

Blue I'm a psychologist by background and have studied in group and outgroup behaviour. I think Burren actually stated my thoughts a lot more clearly. However I seem to be upsetting you which I definitely don't want to do so I'm not sure going into the more indepth psychological stuff around this is helpful?

Fwiw I dislike CBT and never advocated for it on this thread.

To be clear the previous message was for bluepen.

Blue balloon what you experienced was downright nasty bullying behaviour. So maybe that's more what "clique" refers to - a bunch of bullies?

Bullying in schools most definitely does exist.

In DD1's year, there are knots of parents who are friends, they overlap here and there and everyone seems to smile, say hello, exhange pleasantries with each other and the various childminders, grandparents, etc that use see over the course of the term.

In DD2's year there is one particular group of mothers who have a lot in common, clearly socialise outside the school run but ignore wider society at the school gate. I suspect a lot of their bonding is through gossiping about others - housing, income, child rearing, etc. I don't want to be their best friend but since my daughter goes to the same after school stuff, I am clearly not a stranger. Why can they not even say hello when you pass them on the cycle path during the holidays? How can they find you to avoid a birthday party clash but greet you with a blank face at the supermarket. So rude but the aloofness does work and many insecureothers are desperate for an invite to the wider social events with them.

Thank you Callin I like to give a balanced view despite my experience. I do accept that I am or have been disproportionately bothered by 'cliques' because of my history at the hands of one. I do wonder whether other people who unfairly or too readily cry foul at any formation of close friends or exclusive group also share similar baggage to me and need help with dealing with their perception of other peoples behaviour and their self confidence.
I would never wish to blame the victim that is a pet hate of mine but I think the old adage 'Smile and the world smiles with you , cry and you cry alone ' (or whatever it is) is also very true to a degree and if you are visibly down and feeling negative around a group of people you are much less likely to be embraced by them unless there is one perceptive empathic one among them. Like you ! I think many people are basically lazy in forming friendships , so if you look in any way 'hard work' they will give you a swerve , I'm afraid.

their own self confidence , not the 'cliques' that is obv.

Agree Bahhumbug my sister is very cheerful and good fun when she started a new job I asked her how it was going she was quite low key and said it was ok but very cliquey. Saw her again a few weeks later she was much happier - asked how the job was "fine still cliquey but now Im in all the cliques!"

yes kerala that is a good tactic and one I have employed instead of trying in vain to get in one 'clique' or coming home from work in tears every night wondering what was wrong with me (in my late twenties /early thirties this happened a lot) I started to just be friendly to everyone and one day sit with one group or a fellow loner and the next day a different group or person and widen my options really. It is true that people can be unwittingly very cruel if you walk round looking miserable and I myself have been described as a miserable cow or stuck up etc etc. when I was actually just feeling left out.

Some people like organising people. Just being around them isn't enough. It isn't always (maybe not even usually) done with malicious intent, but it is fascinating to me, because I really don't care what everyone else does and when you are in a milieu where someone has taken it upon themselves to run tings socially, their personality has a huge effect on the general group dynamic.

for instance - I used to work with someone who liked to go out for fag breaks quite often. He used to email a group of smokers and ask if they wanted to go to, or not even ask - sort of prompt them - and they all went. There were a lot more breaks and a different, lazier atmosphere after he started. He would get people leaving for lunch 5 minutes early, back 10 minutes late, on the regular. He didn't like me and I wasn't part of all this and over time I really felt a. excluded, which I didn't care about because I don't go to work to make friends, but b. really up against it in challenging all the new breaks and sloppiness, because while I was the boss of the dept he was basically the sort of socially alpha personality. I can't explain what I mean by that - he wasn't nasty, or manipulating people to do things against their will, he was just a natural leader and he made people do things to his mould in a way that I never make people do them to mine. But this was a problem as I was supposed to be running the dept and attempting to do that brought me into direct conflict with him, and his need to be a sort of pied piper.

In that case, he did form a group, he did exclude me (his natural enemy, being the boss - this is how he thought) and he did "imprint" the group with his personality (a bit lazy). Had he been nasty, I would have been in trouble.

A useful thing to remember is that while you're worrying what everyone else thinks of you they're worrying what you think of them. Confident or not one can only form an opinion of others based on what they present to the world. A person might be feeling left out but be unwittingly be giving off unfriendly vibes. I rely a lot on facial expression and eye contact in connecting with others. If a person is very inexpressive or avoids eye contact I struggle to connect.