to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

Would you argue Portofino that it's ok for shy people to keep to themselves while confident people have a sort of duty to talk to everyone?

Yeah but they knew me online before that.

I'm not mousy 'wouldn't say boo to a goose' quiet, but I'm not a loudmouth, and a couple of the group were extremely loud and talkative and it was quite hard to get a word in edgeways.

It's hard to get it right really isn't it? People don't like loudmouths, quieter people are judged as being aloof and unfriendly. I just try to be me these days.

I think that people need to recognise that what might come across as "aloof and snobbish" could actually be sheer terror, vulnerability, discomfort. How would you even know if you don't make the effort to try to get to know someone? If you look at the new person in the corner, chatting to her baby and putting a (very) brave face on it - how can you know she is a snob? Or aloof. She might be very unconfident - and lets face it many new mothers are for many reasons. I had dd at 35. I worked FT til that point. None of my friends had kids. I was like a duck out of water. The mother and baby groups TERRIFIED me.

And shy people probably wouldn't "keep themselves to themselves" if the the confident people actually made an effort. It's not about duty - it's about community spirit and being welcoming to newcomers. It is very sad that you see it as such.

And dare I say it, someone earlier asked if you were in a clique. Going on your responses I would say you come across as very much wanting to defend the position that it is fine to only talk to who YOU want to, and why should anyone ask you to even try to be nice to anyone else. To me that is clique. I would have a long hard think about this to be honest. God forbid you should find yourself wendied.

But IMO there is no "getting it right." It's not a competition. Either people like you or they don't.

Exactly, Cailin

Of course. But you are making excuses not to even SPEAK to people. How do you know if you like them or not, if you don't give them a chance?

Porto I'll say it for the third time: I run a toddler group and speak to every single person at every single session.

Or if they like you?

I agree, Portofino

If you are popular and confident, as CailinDana has alluded to being, then you generally have your pick of people to talk to and to be friends with, as everyone makes the effort for you. Also Cailin sounds as though she is lucky enough to have a good group of longstanding friends, therefore there isn't that need there to get to know new people.

I make new friends all the time, I love seeing a new face at the group.

Yes - you say you speak to them. Do you engage with them? Do you introduce them to others? Do you try to include them in conversation if they are looking a bit a lost? Do you give them a role to make them feel involved? There is a BIG difference between saying "Oh hello X, hasn't Y grown this week" and actually trying to include them in what is going on.

You may well do this, but your responses scream to me that you don't.

Cailin, to put a slightly different slant on things, what do you do if someone tries to befriend you, for example at the school or at an exercise class or something? Do you chat to them and try to get to know them or do you immediately dismiss someone because you have enough friends already?

"Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that."

This was in your OP. Now you say you run a Toddler group. It is your responsibility then to ensure that people who attend your group are not subjected to this. Everyone should be MORE than welcome.

I absolutely love it if someone tries to befriend me. I think it's a huge compliment. But, I will not force a friendship if we don't really see eye to eye.

And yes Porto, I chat, get people involved etc. But again I will not plough effort in indefinitely if the person doesn't reciprocate.

Subjected to what Porto? Genuine question.

You sound as if you feel guilty for what you are doing. But you are in no way acting cliquey. hth.

You have expressed the attitude that you should only be friends with who you want. Fair enough. But if people are unconfident, aloof or appearing snobbish, then they deserve it if people don't want to make friends with them. And no-one should feel it their duty to make an effort with such people. So I presume that is your general attitude. Nice.

Ok Porto, that's not what I'm trying to say but I'd rather not argue with you.

What does a person who does not reciprocate look like? If you are running a toddler group I would say you ARE duty bound to keep trying. Unless they are a genuinely horrible person that it is unpleasant to others.

In terms of not reciprocating - one mum has said she is lonely so I've invited her to my house numerous times, asked her to join the committee of the playgroup, talked to her at length about her worries etc. And she hasn't done anything to keep the friendship going and still acts like we barely know each other after a year. So I feel defeated.

Cailin, I completely agree with your OP.

There us a big group of mums at school who always go out in s group, on holiday together. Etc.

They are nice enough, and it is not as if they refuse to talk to other people, they do often discuss last week's party and then I don't get involved in theconversation. It is their business. I don't feel personally slighted by the fact that friendship grouos exist that I am nit a part of!

I don't want to argue either. There needs to be a MN campaign about generally being NICE to people in the playground. Being welcoming and inclusive. And for Baby groups too. It is when we are at our most vulnerable. When we MOST need the support of others.

Other people - I talk to them every single week but get one word answers. Having spoken to them 10 or 15 times I have to assume that's as far as it will go. Perhaps they don't want to talk to me.