to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

I think that you need to stop stressing CD. It sounds to me like you are being nice.

In terms of being nice in the playground - if a shy person walks in, head down, should a confident person step in front of them a force eye contact? Until I actually talk to someone I don't know if they're shy and desperate to be befriended or just want to be left alone. So the shy person has to at least make a small effort to signal their openness to being approached.

At the toddler group though I just assume everyone wants to at least chat. Even then though it can be a struggle to get people to respond.

You could start a new thread and ask that.

What you are asking now is totally different to your op. The posters on this thread may not necessarily be the ones to have those answers.

I'm curious to know what Porto thinks.

A group of friends is a bunch of people with things in common, yes. But a clique is a group of insecure people who feel the need to make themselves feel better by putting other people down, either among themselves or openly. This is actually damaging to them because they're showing themselves that they're not very nice.

Does Porto's opinion and other named posters' opinions mean more than names that you do not recognise?

No blue.

Now that might make you unpopular.

ok.

Hmm. I am not trying to have a go at you Caillin or anything, Just trying to understand why this stuff goes on. Your OP implies that there are groups of friends and that it the fault of the newcomer that she is not necessarily accepted, because she is maybe snobbish, shy, standoffish, aloof etc. I have tried to put forward some reasons why the newcomber might be like that, and why the existing group SHOULD make extra efforts to include newbies.

Cliques aren't merely associated acquaintances,they have inclusion/exclusion criteria
And that's rub,the inclusion and exclusion.and feelings that exclusion can evoke
No cliques aren't simply loose set of pals,cliques are groups with Norns and rules

eh?

No Porto I said being "quiet" might come across as being snobbish but that doesn't excuse bad treatment. My overriding point is that some people are genuinely not nice and it's just not worth being friends with them. They may be in "cliques" but there's no point in worrying about them. For people who struggle to make friends it might be worth remembering that people aren't necessarily deliberately excluding them but rather just hanging out with their friends.

I think some of the misperceptions occur when people in a clique are convinced that outsiders/ newcomers immediately want to be their best friend, and that's when you get the aloof, distant behaviour. There have been times in a new playground (which is where it usually happens) that I want to tell them that if they smile and say hello I won't be found that very night on their doorsteps grinning like a loon and wanting to gate crash their social events. I'd leave it at least a fortnight.

I think it's very hard, esp for first time mums to go out to groups, it adds to an already stressful time. It's perfectly obvious if the rest of the mums don't bother to make an effort if the mum has no other acquaintances at said event. IMO, nobody is looking for a new BFF but exchanging pleasantries is the most basic of interactions from individuals In a 'clique'. If everyone takes their turn so to speak, then it's not bitchy. Anything else is acting superior IMO. Just because someone doesn't ome attached to another group, doesn't mean they aren't worth speaking to,

I think that people who have the attitude of "I have enough friends" and only spend time with one specific group run the risk of being very lonely at some stage if they get Wendied or if the group ends up dispersing. They will have burnt their bridges with casual acquaintances by being dismissive and unfriendly, so will find it hard to make new friends.

I have a bit of a theory about clique behaviour. It mostly comes from the workplace, rather than school gates, which I didn't spend much time around. By the sound of it, that was a good judgement call.

If you are out in a group in a "closed" situation, such as a dinner out together, or a party at someone's house, or, in the workplace, sitting together in a private office with the door shut, it's fine to expect a degree of "exclusivity". Other people might drop by or perhaps say hello, but it;s your gathering really.

If you expect this sort of "exclusivity" of contact among your group only, in "open" situations, such as a school gate, or a workplace break room (especially one with limited space), you are being precious, probably rude and definitely a bit of a dick.

The kind of behaviour I'm talking about is ignoring people when they say hello, accusing others of "interrupting" or "butting in" when they engage in normal social chat without a specific invitation to do so (which no-one outside of Victorian novels does anyway), and getting all pissy about "private conversations" when you are standing on the pavement/in the canteen/in a busy corridor somewhere, so not remotely in private.

There is that risk definitely cheese but I don't blame people people for sometimes limiting their social group. Maintaining friendships takes time and effort.

There is a difference between maintaining a close friendship, and being on friendly terms with people you like and see regularly. Keeping up friendly relations, especially when you see someone all the time, is easy.

When it cones to cliques, I hate the fact thst a large number of people are seemingly unable to pronounce the word properly.

And the fact I'm unable to master auto correct on this phone is probably aa equally annoying.

Hmm Clanger I have to admit at times when I am tired or not well I would like to just sit and vegetate at playgroup and not have the effort of smiling and chatting to everyone. But that's a special case I suppose as it's my "job" and there are a lot of people to be friendly to. Out and about in the local area I say hi to everyone but that's an Irish thing I think - it would feel very rude to pass someone on a path and not say hi.

Wanting to sit and veg on your own is different to having silly little private conversations in public, like schoolgirls. Especially if you are under the weather.

OP I totally agree. Totally. I've found the most unpopular and lonely women are the ones who either don't give anything back, not even a smile (possibly because they're so SELF-conscious that they can't) or the ones who barge in and talk about themselves all the time.

When my eldest started school there were invitations to a party put in some of the children's post holes. My DD got one and when I saw the mum concerned I thanked her and said we'd love to go. I didn't know her and hadn't spoken before. She replied and said my DD (who has a v common name!) wasn't the child she had meant, and could I put it in the other child's post hole! No apology, no thinking in her feet and saying nothing, just "oh that's a mistake, or wasn't for your DD."
Stunned, I told everyone. Unsurprisingly, the mother isn't v popular, is seen as odd, and refuses to acknowledge the presence of anyone other than a couple of people. She doesn't seem to have the social fluency to deal with people. That's no one else's fault and I don't think anyone should feel guilty for avoiding people like this. And yet she bleats regularly on fb about how clicky the school is!