to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

Burren, yes taking my daughter out of school was very extreme. It only served to make me feel worse about myself and have even less confidence in myself. I found myself thinking what kind of pathetic person behaves like this.

I suffer from depression a lot and have a lot on my plate generally as I raise two disabled children entirely alone.

When I first moved to the area I didn't know a soul and would spend weeks alone without even speaking to another adult- the way the group treated me only served to plummet me into a complete downward spiral.

I've not had help, no. I worked on myself. I got a new job, took up voluntary work and am now much more confident and happy.

Blueballoon, I think you're confusing me with someone else? I'm sorry you had a hard time, though - I know exactly what you mean about spending weeks at a time without talking to another adult. I am a rural-living writer, and many days the postman is the only other adult I see...

Whoops, sorry!
My response was to bonesarecoralmade

Burren until I moved to this area I'd never experienced being alone so much. The loneliness began to consume me and the treatment from this clique only amplified it all.

I was the same in that some days it would only be the postman I'd see. I'd go for weeks without having even a conversation with anyone. Sometimes I'd walk to the shop just for a chance to interact with people.

It's all changing now slowly for the better, but at first I found it unbearably hard.

Cailin I agree with you completely (I've come to this thread rather late!) and in fact say the same thing time and time again on all the 'school gate mums are a bunch of bitches' threads.

It's ridiculous and actually utterly unfair to call women in a friendship groups bitchy if they dare not to include you in all conversations or - shock horror - leave you out of a trip to Starbucks.

And most of all I agree that not everyone will like you and you need to etiher shrug and accept that OR if it's a recurring theme (people not wanting to befriend you), look to yourself and your own behaviour, not everyone else's.

Comeeatfam What do you suggest I should have done with the situation I described?

I understand they didn't have to like me, but to be so rude and ignorant was hurtful.

I did look at my own behaviour long and hard. I picked over everything and wondered what on earth I'd done, but I still am clueless as to why I was treated like that.

I haven't read your post blueballoon. I will do.

comeatmefam It really does depend on the individual situation and context. There are some groups who make a point of being exclusive and of cold-shouldering those they don't want to befriend. That is bitchy behaviour.

Of course it's ridiculous to expect to be invited to every single social event. Of course a group of three of four mothers who are friends should feel able to go off to Starbucks on their own, and not have to invite all and sundry. But don't make a point of announcing it loudly, making sure that those who aren't going can hear and know that they aren't to be invited (which is not at all the same thing as saying it normally and simply being overheard.)
Clique behaviour includes deliberately ensuring that those who are left out must be aware of the fact, so that they can admire the superiority of the gang and feel smaller themselves as a consequence.

" no one wants to be stood in the middle of the playground on their own looking like billy no mates"
"Unfortunately some people just have terrible social skills."

Oh that's me!!

After years of crippling social anxiety disorder, I don't give a rats anymore.

People have never gravitated to me.
Maybe I'm partially autistic, maybe I've an odd face, maybe I project anxiety/aloof-ness or whatever. Maybe I don't have the time or patience to get involved. Who knows. maybe its the name

I will never be the life n soul, little miss popular. I will never for certain know what people think about me or if they think about me at all, so why bother.

It's a whole waste of time.

My sister lord bless her thinks I should get to know parents, get on the PTA, be a popular mum for the sake of DD. I'm getting the anxiety just thinking about!

Much healthier not to give a rats, Elenor!
I'll merrily join you as billy-no-mates in the playground, and it doesn't bother me one bit either, as it no longer has any impact on my children.
I have a lovely network of friends from school, church, music groups and work. If the clique of mums in the playground really think I sob into my pillow because they've made it clear they're ignoring me, or openly laughing at the cakes I make for the PTA sale then they're deluded. I actually find them v funny (except insofar as they do upset others.)

"Much healthier not to give a rats, Elenor!"

It took me a long time to learn!

Worrying about other people made me very ill, I'm not back there I can tell you!

Sally

I've said this many times on MN. I'm 47, have three daughters, a big family and lots of friends ie I have known many women and groups of women over the years. I have NEVER come across a clique! Only women who are friends. It only feels like a clique if you are not in it! 'Exclusion' and 'bitchiness' and 'cold shouldering' = 'don't really want to be friends with you so not making the effort/inviting you', that is all.

Don't you have people you don't like, don't want to bother with too much, think they are ok but don't click with? If so, if they were actively persuing a friendship with you, you'd just go along with that would you? You would go to coffee, pub, dinner etc with someone you don't particularly like or find interesting?

I do concede however, that being unfriendly (not smiling, say hi or having a 2 minute chat to someone who comes over or you bump into) is horrible, unnecessary and mean spirited. Again, I have never seen a group of women actively ignore someone! Maybe you all live in different universes to me.

Blueballon

Ok read it.

Sorry it was tough for you.

I think it was about your (understandable) anxiety and stress about moving to a new place and you put way too much truck on becoming part of or being accepted this group.

Maybe they were rude and 'bitchy' but maybe they just had a group of mates and, while not disliking you, didn't really want to hang out with you? Maybe they didn't like you enough to befriend you - we all have people we click with and people we don't.

I agree there is no need to be unfriendly but it sounds like a friendly hello and a quick chat was not just what you were after. You wanted proper friends and they didn't want that. That's not a crime you know.

You might have come across as too intense and nervous which made them feel uncomfortable? They might have misread that as you being nosy or interupting them or you being too talkative (out of nerves).

As Cailin and others have said, you do know we all feel insecure, left out, paranoid, excluded with certain people at certain times? I do sometimes for sure. So you shouldn't feel like this was a failure or you were in some way terribly unusual.

You ask what you should have done? Well just given up trying sooner, I think. And not then labelled them as bitches!!

I am another who doesn't really care about standing on my own at the school either. In fact I just thought of this thread an hour ago when I went to pick up my DCs.

I often just stand on my own at the front of the crowd at picking up time. There do seem to be lots of groups of mums but tbh although I am on friendly terms with the mums from DS's year group, I actually prefer to just stand on my own and have a bit of a think before DS comes running out.

Like I said, I am on friendly terms with anyone, but I don't have the 'must stand with X every day' mentality that some seem to have. Very few people actually come over and talk to me at pick up, I must have a "fuck off" type face on

I don't care either about standing on my own.

Some days I'll see mums I like and feel comfortable with and can have a laugh or chat with.

Other days there will be mums who don't chat to me or are engaged in a chat with someone else or maybe I don't really like them, so I just stand on my own and fiddle with my phone!

I have NEVER come across a clique! Only women who are friends. It only feels like a clique if you are not in it!
So - are all the psychologists writing about the phenomenon making it up, then, in your view?

Don't you have people you don't like, don't want to bother with too much, think they are ok but don't click with? If so, if they were actively persuing a friendship with you, you'd just go along with that would you? You would go to coffee, pub, dinner etc with someone you don't particularly like or find interesting?
I'd go for coffee if it was someone new, and they were trying to find their feet, yes. Certainly wouldn't go for dinner. Most importantly I would say hello to them, introduce them to other people in the group, and make some effort until they had found their feet. You seem to think that the problem is with those who feel excluded because they're looking for really good friends. It's just as much the case that those in cliques could relax a little bit and not assume that because somebody wants to say hello they want to start going out to the pub all the time or intruding on an established friendship.

Maybe you all live in different universes to me. This does seem quite a likely explanation.

Comeatmefam.
If you have to fiddle your phone if you are alone, it looks like you really aren't comfortable to be by yourself in that situation.

LOL Cheeseandfikle!
You have a fuck off face too!

I'd go for coffee with someone new too - done it a million times. If we don't click or I don't really like them I wouldn't want to do it again but would remain friendly in terms of playground chats etc of course.

Then do I become a 'cliquey bitch who only wants to hang out with my band of cliquey bitches' when I avoid doing it again or do I become friends with them and have regular arrangements with them against my will?

I said above, it's horrible to be rude and unfriendly to someone. It's not rude to decide not to spend time with someone you're not interested in. But according to some on here, any kind of avoidance and non inclusion is snubbing and cruel and mean.

Yes I think a lot of it's bullshit since you ask (re psychologists).

Elenor

I'm not always comfortable. I'm self consious sometimes. I'm ok with being (and looking) uncomfortable sometimes. I said that above. I'd rather stand on my own feeling a bit of a lemon than muscle in on convos or talk to people just for the sake of it.

If we don't click or I don't really like them I wouldn't want to do it again but would remain friendly in terms of playground chats etc of course. Well to me that's the crucial point - if you remain friendly, then you're not being cliquey. Of course you're not expected to shackle yourself socially to someone you don't especially like. But there's a big difference between politely declining future invitations once you've done your bit, and coldly and pointedly ignoring somebody. And that's the behaviour which I find objectionable.
I'll give you an example of the 'cliquey' behaviour I mean which I've put on Mnet before under a different name. Church held a wreath making afternoon before Christmas to which loads of schoolchildren and their parents went. I was placed on a table with three other mothers who knew each other well. I said hello and smiled at them and was ignored. They began talking about general things and I interjected a couple of pleasantries which met with stony silence. Then one of their daughters came up, pointed at my wreath, and said how crap it was (which was true). All three then began to talk about how poor my wreath was as if I wasn't there. Eventually I gave up and joined a different table and just chatted to the other women there. I actually found the episode very funny. I don't want to socialise with the three of them or do more than say a civil hello. But the efforts that they went to to make me know that I wouldn't be allowed to are nothing short of bizarre. And I'm perfectly comfortable with labelling that behaviour bitchy, as well as downright weird.

Well of course you shouldn't impose yourself on anyone.

It does sound like you need to be with/be seen with people to be comfortable though.

Flip side to that is being like me!

Comeeatfam actually a friendly hello and a quick chat was JUST what I was after.

Unfortunately this group of women can't even bear to say hello to me. I was thinking of this thread today when I saw one of them and she started walking quickly away from me to avoid me and I actually thought I don't know why she's walking so quickly as now I don't even want to talk to her anyway.

Perhaps I did come across as too intense, perhaps they did think I wanted to be friends and this made them feel they should ignore me as I didn't want that. Who knows?

I don't care anymore though about why they acted this way- they just do. I now chat to many other Mums and many different friendship groups who aren't taken to ignoring others and will say hello.

No I don't need to be seen with people, Elenor. I can be awkward and shy with some people. With my friends or like minded mums I love chatting with, I would appear the complete opposite of shy (I don't care who's observing that or not though ).

Blueballoon - that's so unfriendly . What the hell does it take to jsut say hello and have a two minute chat? How bloody rude. Glad you have other mum friends now - that's what I meant. Just give up on rude people - and quick. Give up on people who don't want to be mates. They may or may not be horrible, but either way they are a waste of your time.

Sally I don't know what to say about the weird, bitchy trio at the craft thingy. Maybe they are completely mad, completely horrible or maybe you just came across differently than you think you did?

When my eldest dd was little I was so nervous and on edge with mums at nursery school. I overthought every interjection, every smile or move I made. Later I found out people thought I was scary and unfriendly. I was trying to be the complete opposite but my intent to be included just made me look very serious and I was sort of barking out comments!

It didn't suprise me though when I heard they thought that because my shyness has been seen as rudeness or stand offishness since I was a child.

That's why I now gravitate towards like minded people who I instinctively know I'll get on with OR with established friends (AKA 'cliques' ).

Comeme You could be right, and there are times when I come over as standoffish, I'm sure, but I really don't think that that was the case on this occasion, not least because even if that were the case, it's really not OK to agree with your kid that someone else's work is crap. And I was trying to be quite friendly and smiley.
I don't think you sound cliquey at all . When I use that word I mean behaviour such as I've described, or as blueballoon describes. That's v different to just not wanting to be friends.