to think that this country needs to improve wraparound care for school age children

[PontOffelPock]

There is rightly a lot of focus at the moment on the cost of pre-school childcare.

However, for us at least, the real killer has been the lack of decent, affordable wrap around care for school-age DCs. Its nigh on impossible to find an available childminder near our school to do the pick-ups, there is no breakfast/after-school club, and we both have an hour commute, so we are increasingly reliant on family. The holiday club we enrolled our DCs in is very expensive. I wonder how on earth other parents who both work full time (and one parent isn't a teacher) manage when school hours are 9-3 plus all the holidays.

AIBU to think that this needs some focus so that parents are able to work full-time if they need to?

yoshi I think you misunderstood my post. I was referring to wraparound care available on school premises, not implying that school was a form of childcare.

Although since we're on that matter, we are encouraged to see education as a form of childcare by various governments using the rule that once a child is of school age a lone parent can not use caring duties as an excuse for not seeking employment. Fact is that without school hours factored into the equation, most parents could not afford to work. That doesn't make it the school's job, of course, but to deny that duality achieves nothing.

FWIW, I think childcare is massively undervalued and I always wanted to pay more to my wonderful CM. My DC are the most precious beings in the world to me and you get what you pay for.

We moved heaven and earth to avoid wrap around care as i didn't want that for my kids. Both my DH and I reduced our hours so that one of us was always available to pick up/drop off. It was a battle with my employer at one stage but they reluctantly agreed in the end. It's meant a reduction in our income but a better solution for the kids so I'm happy with that.

If you're working long hours (i.e. not getting home til gone 9pm, leaving the house by 7am) then you need an au pair or a nanny.

If your working those hours then god help your children. That is not right. If you choose to have them then you need to sacrifice your career progression for a while . No child deserves to not see their parents for so long. I wouldn't do that to my dogs never mind children

I think part of it does reflect the impact on the children. Now I have 2 at school I couldn't imagine having them in wraparound care full-time as they have so much emotional need before and after school in terms of settling them in and supporting them coming out of school.

I do think this plays a role in the lack of care - many parents realise that it is a different kettle of fish working full-time once their children are in school. While nursery or a nanny/childminder works around the needs and routines of a pre-school aged child, this is not replicated through wraparound care (children don't get individual emotional support or ability to play with their chosen friends or engage in the activities they want to). And less people therefore want to use it.

I think the realistic alternatives are to send kids to a private school that has longer hours and/or includes activities, homework etc in the wraparound care or to get a nanny who can replicate a parent within the child's home environment. Neither of these options are cheap though!

YANBU - the government appears very keen to have working parents therefore they need to have the logistics in place for this.

It's one of the reasons we went private - they have reliable and enjoyable wraparound cover and school holiday clubs, although it is expensive. I don't work f/t by the way, but even working p/t it's very hard to do a working pattern that works for your employers as well as yourself without some form of cover.

Totally agree with yoshipoppet. Much better would be for higher wages to be paid so a parent can stay home or cut their hours.

Some children want to go to after school care. I cant go on maternity leave until right up to the time as dd says she will be upset as she cant go. I have tried to afford it without working but think it will be a stretch whilst Im off.

Mutley Im confused to why you think childrens emotional individual needs are not met at after school and holiday club or that they are not allowed to play activities they want or be with friends? Surely thats what the service is

Why are people assuming that needing childcare early in the morning or late at night means that you are working excessive hours that are damaging your children?

It's perfectly possible to work part time and be out at these hours if you are a shift worker. You may still end up spending more time with your DC over the course of a fortnight than someone on a typical 9-5.

We are incredibly lucky here. We have a free breakfast club that you can drop in to - you don't need to book in advance. We also have excellent wraparound care for nursery age children to 7 year olds at the school, and we have a fab after school and holiday club run by the Council, which picks up from the 2 local primary schools. Employers childcare vouchers can be used at both wraparound and the after school club.

If we didn't have the above I don't know what we would do, having no family around to call upon.

As for the 'emotional impact' of after school clubs and wraparound care - what utter tosh.

I can see both sides here.

At our school there is breakfast club from 7.45 and afterschool until 5.45. I don't know of many DCs that are in for the full length of time but if they are then it's a 10 hr day. At our afterschool club there is no facility for DCs to do homework, therefore if they are in 5 days a week they would need to be brought home, given tea and then do homework - it is a long day and would I imagine be tough on the parent and child.

For some children it's not a problem - some of DS's friends love going to afterschool, with DS he's not so keen, but as I have been lucky enough to jig my hours so he only goes once a week, I can live with any resultant emotional scarring that he gets from that.

Provision is so inconsistent from one school to another. Our after school club finishes at 5.00 and the earliest someone can pick up is 5.15. So instead of paying £2.50 to after school club it's £7.00 to a CM (who is wonderful and there for holidays and non-pupil days). When I queried this is was told the cost would rise dramatically after 5.00 so those already using it had chosen to keep it as it is. I'd happily pay for my DD to attend clubs after school if it was an option but on the days I work there would be no care for her after the activity. I only do pick up twice a week and don't know many other working parents to canvas opinion. People I speak to get by with after school club/CM/grandparents/SAHP.

I'm lucky that in laws do two weeks of holidays a year and my parents do a couple of days alternating with CM at other times. Without our CM and grandparents I would ever get any annual leave with DH. This so much harder than when DD1 was in nursery, little did I know.

ReallyTired The reason why staffing ratios are different for out of school clubs compared to school classrooms is that TAs are supervising a class of similarly-aged children all (broadly speaking) engaged in the same, set activity, and all (broadly speaking) in the same place. At an out of school club the staff will need to be keeping an eye on a wide age range of children, from 4 to 11, all doing completely different activities of their choosing, running around, having fun, and ideally having free choice of being inside or outside. Hard to make sure that everyone is safe, happy, engaged and properly supervised with only a ratio of 1:15 or even 1:30 (currently proposed by the Govt).

Also staff at a well-run after school club should also be doing rather more than just 'babysitting' the children!

grendel I think that there is a bit of self interest in child care workers wanting to keep ratios low and keeping the status quo. What you describe is essentially a nursery set up which might be appriopiate for four year olds, but not suitable for older children.

I think that the quality of many after school clubs is frankly crap. The set up that you describe for an after school club is more suited to nursery than school children. In particular I feel it should be possible to get homework done and for children to practice their reading in after school club if we are going to keep a ratio of 1 to 8. Doing homework or reading is rarely an activity of the child's choosing, but has to be done. It is not in the child interest to practice their reading or spellings after 6pm in the evening.

School children rarely have toilet accidents and are capable of going to toilet on their own. School children generally have a good sense of safety. If you think about it reception children are the most needy in an after school club situation are looked after with a ratio of 2 adults to 30 children at school. The early years foundation stage has children doing lots of different activites both inside and out.

If an after school club is on site then there are certainly staff around in the morning before school. Very few teachers leave on the dot of three.

What have the teaching staff got to do with after and before school ratios though?

At our fantastic after school club they do a huge variety of things including some off site.It's not one activity for 200 kids.

It's about quality.

Re homework, sorry I'd want a trained teacher helping with that not a childcare worker.Most teachers will have more than enough to do after school.

These demands stagger me.

They're your kids.Plan the funding of your childcare before you have them.You know somebody will have to look after them and there will be a cost whichever path you go down.

Our club does all homework and reading.

Why does a trained teacher need to be on hand to help with homework? Homework, by its very nature, is done at home, and not requiring the presence of a qualified teacher. I'm happy for anyone to help the DCs with their homework, but prefer that they do it themselves - as they are supposed to.

As great as our after school workers are they're minimum wage teenagers.If my DS is struggling with his algebra I'd like somebody qualified on hand or somebody with at least my level of education.

Demanding the state covers your dc's homework is beyond entitled.The clue is in the name- it's homework,to be done at home.

Again our after school club staff are qualified to degree or post graduate level (EYP)

YANBU argh I have an after school club but there are no spaces so my dc go to a cm who doesn't even want them and has said she's not doing it anymore in a month. I have no idea what to do the CM has been so unprofessional and unreliable it's a joke (think taking a weeks holiday with six days notice) I have to work but without my grandparents it wouldn't be possible. I would love love love good affordable reliable childcare which I could trust. In a way it's good the cm is stopping as the dc are so unhappy going there.

I know a common arguement that child care providers use is that that need ratios of 1 to 8 because in an emergency they need someone else to look after the children. I think its fair to say that an after school club needs two people, but I think that staff could get help in an emergency from other staff on site. (Ie. the receptionist is in school from 8am and can make phone calls.)

I would like careful thought about what actually school children need for after school care rather than a glorified nursery.