to wonder whether it is ever acceptable to shout and swear at your partner?

[snowycakes]

Genuine question. I have only been in one (10 year) relationship so want some outside perspective and am not just looking for validation!

When DP gets annoyed about things he tends to shout and swear at me, although I have told him I don't find it acceptable, and he knows it really upsets me. However, he says that I provoke him to do it and that it's a natural reaction to being wound up. I really don't like it, but is it just a part of being a couple that I should accept if I do/say something that annoys him?

I obviously do things that he doesn't like as well, and am far from being perfect.

This sounds really petty (and long sorry!), but as an example: this morning DP was really hungry by about 11am (he hadn't had breakfast) and suggested going to get takeaway pizza for lunch before he had to go to work at 2. I agreed but said that it was a bit early for lunch - and the pizza place wasn't even open at that point. The house has been a tip all week (both of our stuff) so I wanted us to do a bit of tidying up before we went. He watched TV most of the morning and then at 12 said he was going for lunch with or without me - I said I wanted to finish the tidying up I was doing for 5 minutes and then I'd be ready. He got really stroppy and started ranting about how tidying up ruined his day, there's no point in doing it as things only get messy again, he was really hungry, and he would have to rush his lunch before work, etc. So I got in the car to go with him, and asked him why he was acting like a stroppy teenager (which obviously wound him up) about having to tidy up and the fact that he hadn't had lunch before midday! He started raising his voice and ranting for ages. In between the ranting I asked him to stop shouting and swearing at me and asked why he was acting like this. He then ranted about how he wasn't shouting etc. I said that he was (he was raising his voice aggressively), and asked him to stop. He then got really angry and started properly roaring at me, swearing, saying stuff like, "Do you want a f slap?" "THIS is shouting, I didn't make you cry before so I can't have been shouting!" After he had calmed down he stuck by what he did, and said that it was my fault and I deserved it as I had wound him up, and if I had provoked anyone else like that I would have got punched.

Obviously I'm not perfect (and wasn't blameless this morning) and do things that he doesn't like or that annoy him, but I still don't think it's acceptable to have to be shouted/sworn at - however annoying you are! Am I just being hyper-sensitive? My Dad did it a lot when I was younger, to me and (less often) my Mum.

So I think what I really want to know is, is shouting and swearing something that happens in all couples when the man (or the woman) gets annoyed - or is it something that shouldn't be put up with?

married for 25 years and 4 kids.

very very rarely row. swear at each other as a joke, I.e you daft sod. never ever sworn at each other in anger.

never ever threatened or hit each other.

my parents shouted, swore and hit each other in a volatile relationship and have been married now for 60 years they would say happily as they love the drama.

their kids didn't.

he sounds absolutist horrible op sorry, I simply couldn't live with someone shouting, swearing and threatening me. that's not love that's hate.

It's very hard to leave someone when you have children with them. If he thinks it's ok to scream at you and threaten you with a slap for annoying him in such a minor way, then it's a fair guess that he won't control himself in front of any children you choose to have with him. He may not scream and threaten them when they annoy him, at best he'll turn his frustrations with them onto you. They'll have the misery of watching. If you leave you'll worry about them being on the receiving end of his temper when he has them on the weekends and you won't be there to protect them.

A man who thinks a full blown screaming tantrum and threats of violence toward someone who delayed their lunch is justified, is someone who's likely to escalate to real physical violence when riled up enough. That will be your 'fault' too. He's a cunt and a potentially dangerous one at that. If you're going to stay with him, don't get tied down with joint financial commitments or children, leave yourself with the ability to run when you have to.

Does he get that way about male friends and relatives, too?

No - that's a good point perfectstorm. His family have quite sexist 'old fashioned' values - his parents were older when they had him and in the whole family there is a lot more negativity towards female partners than male ones. A lot of this comes from his Mum!! E.g. they will think it's funny if one of the men sneaks out to the pub while staying with MIL, leaving their wife behind with MIL which they definitely aren't happy with! This behaviour is justified because their wife is 'annoying/controlling', and if she says anything that's seen as bad. If the men don't sneak out the pub behind their wife's back they are seen as being 'under the thumb'. The family still laugh about the time (about 15 years ago now!!) when his brother's wife was very upset about her partner coming home to MILs hours late one night when they were staying there, and still slag off his wife for arguing with him when he got in.

OP, he sounds vile, absolutely fucking vile. No loving partner would speak to their OH in such a way. He's a bully, and of course he's not like that all the time. He knows that if he was you'd leave him but by being nice in between the abuse he has you where he wants you.
Please dont have children with this man.
You may be better moving this thread to relationships where there will be more people who have been in similar circumstances that can advise you

Some things that sound like red flags:

• self-absorbed (eg had to have food NOW after skipping breakfast, objecting to you tidying the place you share)
• sounds like you have to walk on eggshells, a lot, and "manage him"
• blaming his anger/nasty behaviour on you
• escalating when you ask him to stop shouting and swearing
• talking about slapping you
• not being apologetic
• making negative remarks about "bossy" women

If you have DC with him, when he's sleep deprived, has less time to do what he wants, when you are less able to pander to him, what will he be like then?

Leave him now.

Before you have children and before he actually slaps you.

He is not for you to control, change or submit to.

This is the time for you to move on. ASAP.

You know, the writer, Nora Ephron, once commented that you should never marry anyone you wouldn't like to be divorced from - I cite that on "what to look for in a partner" quite often, because it is brilliant advice. In the early days of a relationship, we are usually of the view that the other person is fabulous, and treat them accordingly. But life will have flashpoint moments and tough times, and at those times, you need the person you're with to be fundamentally decent and kind. Basically, how do they treat people they dislike? How are they to people who can't answer back (shop assistants, call centre staff, waiters, and so on)? If the answer is "sometimes really shitty" then that's how they will be to you... and there will be nothing at all stopping them from being vile to their kids. Given people like that are harder to live with, there'll be a higher chance of divorce, too - and would you imagine he would be civil, fair, and amicable if you split up with children? Honestly?

And there's also the point that if he has these attitudes to women, they are attitudes he will unthinkingly display around and perpetuate with his kids, too. Would you be happy to see those attitudes in your children, or inflicted on them? Would you be willing for your kids to see you spoken to as he did?

And the family will be your children's family. That MIL will be your children's GM. When you have a family with someone, you have a family with their family, too.

I think you have a lot of thinking to do. Have you considered maybe having some counselling, so you can clarify what you feel and what you can expect in a setting that is centred around your own needs and wishes? If you can afford it, I think it might be an idea.

For what it's worth, there are lovely, kind, reasonable men out there. Everyone fights, but I think fights should be about a problem - not threatening and aggressive, and not personal. My own husband is a really, really good person. I read him your OPs earlier because I'm afraid I often tell him MN is very salutary and makes me appreciate him, because women so often describe behaviour that makes my hair stand on end. This is a good example of someone describing a relationship dynamic that sounds miserable. And while it's only a snapshot, it's a rather worrying one, I'm afraid. Hence why a counsellor, who can work it all through with you as a whole, might be handy.

I have been married for 27 years and never once has DH behaved as you describe in your op
I think you deserve to be treated better than that.

And don't show him this thread.

It won't change him because he is abusive. He could treat you as if he loved you. He doesn't because he doesn't care and he doesn't love you.

Cut your losses short.

He's already showing you who he is. Believe him.

You don't have DCs which makes it much more straight forward to leave.

If you can only absorb one thing at this stage - every difficult thing you endure now would be magnified with DCs.

Also OP please remember that these men often massively escalate their behaviour once their partner becomes pregnant. Things could get very scary indeed.
His family dynamic sounds very unpleasant too.

"Do you want a F slap" would have been the beginning of the end for me.
Validating how much shouting is 'acceptable?" is irrelevant.
He's an abusive bully and you need to end it before it escalates.
The last thing you need is marriage/children with this excuse for a man.

OP in answer to your last paragraph - no, and no.

I shall bow out and leave the thread to the LTBs

Or maybe some of us don't find being screamed and sworn at acceptable behaviour.

my parents shouted, swore and hit each other in a volatile relationship and have been married now for 60 years they would say happily as they love the drama

their kids didn't

Think about this OP.

Do you want a fucking slap?

I've been in about five long term relationships op, and no one has ever talked to me like that.

I couldn't live like that... Being regularly subjected to verbal abuse. You sound like you have quite low expectations - why would you think you don't deserve to be treated with respect by your husband?

Can't believe some of these replies btw.

his parents sound vile too. think on.

I think it's about respect, I have enough respect to not shout and swear at my partner. He also has enough respect to not shout and swear at me. Yes once were there slightly raised voices but that's it, born more through frustration than anger.

He has no respect to speak to you like that

Damnautocorrect exactly if there's no respect there's nothing.

I can be very very irrational when hungry. (Some people are although no one knows why.) Although I've never threatened violence to anyone - let alone someone I love.

But I am an adult and I have a responsibility to deal with this. I never ever skip breakfast. I always have a healthy snack with me. I think about when I will eat lunch and dinner and make sure I will not be anywhere near starving by this point. Since I was 21 I have warned pretty much everyone I have ever met that I get grumpy when I'm hungry and if I start bing grumpy to tell me to eat. No one ever has because I make sure they don't.

The only time I ever have a problem with it since age 21 is while staying with myPIL - who tend to skip meals randomly and without warning. If I am in control of food it never happens because I don't let it.

The Op's dh could have had breakfast and so hunger is not an excuse.

The thing that makes me most unsettled about this is his absolute comfort with the idea he has the right to hit you. That he's entitled to. That he can threaten to violently assault you, and afterwards can tell you that anyone else would have punched you - i.e. it was magnanimous of him to decide not to.

There's a lot of research into the mindsets of convicted rapists and convicted domestic abusers, and the one thing that is notable is that most think they are entitled to do as they do, and that everyone else does it as well. That their behaviour is normal. He's not just implying he thinks domestic violence is normal, and justifiable if he personally feels provoked - he's out and out telling you as much.

More than half of all physical violence in intimate partnerships begins in pregnancy, because the woman is uniquely vulnerable. And I notice you said of course you'd leave if he started treating you that way in front of kids... but the thing is, domestic abuse can happen to anyone. It isn't perpetrated by evil men with twirly moustaches upon whey-faced whiny women. It can happen to anyone, and the frog-in-the-bathtub principle is why. It's incremental. It develops, and slowly worsens, against a backdrop of an otherwise often very loving relationship that may "just be a bit volatile". I have to ask: would you have imagined you would stay with someone who threatened to hit you in the context of such venom and aggression, over nothing, and then when things had calmed down turned round and told you you had in fact earned severe and serious violence at the hands of any other man - ie, he was being generous in not striking you? Would you always have instantly assumed you'd leave someone like that, before?

Domestic abuse can happen to anyone. The problem is, most women feel like it's something that can't. So they dismiss the evidence of their own ears and eyes.

All that perfectstorm said.

It's happening already. If you stay with him it will happen in front of any children you have. He will hit you at some point. You will have years of heartache because you are linked by the children, even if you split.

This is the time to go. Right now.

Skip a meal yourself and ask him if the cunt fancies a kick in the Bollocks.
If he gets rage or hurt at your question then he has nasty double standards and you'd do best to end it.

OK. Shouting and swearing I don't think is the problem here (and yes, I do think everyone shouts and/or swears at times, I think they are lying if they say they don't). Threatening someone with 'a slap' is not normal. I am not really sure why you would think it was? Or why you would think it was the same as shouting 'oh for fucks sake' at your partner, which I don't think is in any way the same thing (unless it is deliberately scaring them).

Obviously you were being a bit annoying for no real reason (why not just tell him to go ahead to get food if he wanted? It's a bit bizarre to insist that someone can't get food if they are clearly very hungry just because you are doing something else), but whatever you were doing was not a justification for someone threatening you with violence.

I think maybe you could do with someone in real life to help you with perspective and boundary type stuff? Whether that leads to you dumping this seemingly unpleasant man is up to you.

AIBU in suggesting perhaps 10 years with this man is long enough and it's time to find someone who will treat you like a human being/be happy by yourself for a bit?

He completely flew off the handle at you and basically blamed you for him not having breakfast/pizza place not being open and DID act like a stroppy teenager about tidying up...

I think maybe you need to have a loooong chat about why he feels the need to use you as his 'whipping boy' and start to think about where you're headed, as generally this sort of behaviour only gets worse if left 'untreated'.

Let's just say I'm glad I left my abusive ex's and found current DP!