to wonder whether it is ever acceptable to shout and swear at your partner?

[snowycakes]

Genuine question. I have only been in one (10 year) relationship so want some outside perspective and am not just looking for validation!

When DP gets annoyed about things he tends to shout and swear at me, although I have told him I don't find it acceptable, and he knows it really upsets me. However, he says that I provoke him to do it and that it's a natural reaction to being wound up. I really don't like it, but is it just a part of being a couple that I should accept if I do/say something that annoys him?

I obviously do things that he doesn't like as well, and am far from being perfect.

This sounds really petty (and long sorry!), but as an example: this morning DP was really hungry by about 11am (he hadn't had breakfast) and suggested going to get takeaway pizza for lunch before he had to go to work at 2. I agreed but said that it was a bit early for lunch - and the pizza place wasn't even open at that point. The house has been a tip all week (both of our stuff) so I wanted us to do a bit of tidying up before we went. He watched TV most of the morning and then at 12 said he was going for lunch with or without me - I said I wanted to finish the tidying up I was doing for 5 minutes and then I'd be ready. He got really stroppy and started ranting about how tidying up ruined his day, there's no point in doing it as things only get messy again, he was really hungry, and he would have to rush his lunch before work, etc. So I got in the car to go with him, and asked him why he was acting like a stroppy teenager (which obviously wound him up) about having to tidy up and the fact that he hadn't had lunch before midday! He started raising his voice and ranting for ages. In between the ranting I asked him to stop shouting and swearing at me and asked why he was acting like this. He then ranted about how he wasn't shouting etc. I said that he was (he was raising his voice aggressively), and asked him to stop. He then got really angry and started properly roaring at me, swearing, saying stuff like, "Do you want a f slap?" "THIS is shouting, I didn't make you cry before so I can't have been shouting!" After he had calmed down he stuck by what he did, and said that it was my fault and I deserved it as I had wound him up, and if I had provoked anyone else like that I would have got punched.

Obviously I'm not perfect (and wasn't blameless this morning) and do things that he doesn't like or that annoy him, but I still don't think it's acceptable to have to be shouted/sworn at - however annoying you are! Am I just being hyper-sensitive? My Dad did it a lot when I was younger, to me and (less often) my Mum.

So I think what I really want to know is, is shouting and swearing something that happens in all couples when the man (or the woman) gets annoyed - or is it something that shouldn't be put up with?

Firstly I'm not going to comment on who was in the right bout your lunchtime argument as I don't think that is particularly relevant, it's more about the behaviour during the argument.

Dh and I do have regular shouting at each other, we swear at each other often too. Thats who we are, we're both loud and both fly off the handle. It's just how we often communicate, and both of us were brought up with parents that did the same. However, for us, its mutual agreement that behave like this. Whereas there are some things we might say in jest or minor irritation, neither of us would accept serious threats of violence.

I don't really think it matters what others do in their relationship, it might give you some perspective, so in that respect I could say yes I think most couples shout at each other and many swear. In reality it's more about how you feel, fuck anyone else, if you don't like something then you should address it, regardless of how normal others find it.

No, we don't have kids yet but are thinking about starting a family, which is probably making me question our relationship more than usual.

I don't want to talk to anyone in RL about it as most of my friends have "perfect" relationships that they're apparently happy with, so it's good to hear about what's actually normal in other people's relationships.

Why should the OP have to work out what the trigger is? He's a grown man! On the one hand it's unacceptable to speak to him like he's a child but on the other she's meant to tiptoe around him and work out what triggers his tantrums like he's some kind of overgrown toddler?!

It is one thing to be in a firey relationship where both parties scream and shout at each other. It's something else entirely to be on the receiving end of this kind of tirade and trying to work how to 'not trigger' it or how to not make it escalate by keeping your mouth shut. OP, would you be happy with a sister or a friend being spoken to like that by a partner?

Mamapain I think that may be our problem - I know other couples who have happy relationships most of the time but both shout and swear at each other, and this is acceptable to both of them. But in our case I get really upset by being shouted and sworn at, whereas he thinks it's ok. So it's more the incompatibility that's the problem maybe.

X'd again

It is, in my experience, normal for any one person to be able to annoy another. Some you can walk away from and ignore (BIL and SIL are in this category). Others you have to cope with - like work colleagues. Yet others you get to have to deal with, discuss it and work through it, like a child or ranty OH.

How much wriggle room you give a ranty OH is up to you. And I could never believe anyone who claims to live in a relationship where it never happens.

Also wanted to add, I don't think there is a benchmark for these things. I know from mn, everyone has massively varying degrees of what is acceptable.

You have people who don't care if their partner calls them a cunt, but heaven forbid they should utter the word chubby or anything 'personal'. There are people who want a partner to be totally honest with them about their weight, accept that they never receive compliments etc but will not tolerate any swearing.

It's rare to like all your partners behaviour, and when people are very angry it does bring out their worst side. DH absolutely hates it but I can be really cruel when I'm furious and I really don't like that DH smashes/punches household objects when he's raging.Those are faults we accept in each other because they are rare and occur when we're at our worst.

I don't think you can totally change how someone copes with extreme emotions, as a compromise, I would say it's ok for your DH to shout and swear even if you don't like it, as long as it's more of a rarity.

It never happens here. Never has in 15 years of our relationship. We have fallen out, yep. We have disagreements. But I have never, ever screamed at him or swore at him and he never has at me either. I don't understand why that would be so unbelievable?

LingDiLong - No, I wouldn't be happy with a sister or friend being spoken to like that. But equally DP is quite negative about his friends or brothers' girlfriends being 'bossy/annoying' and would say he could see why their partners would get angry with them. So I don't know whether it's just a difference in our opinion as to what's acceptable.

Any tips on how to address his 'rantiness' (don't think that's an actual word ) without a massive row and so he actually sees my point of view and stops doing it?

Sorry x-posted although maybe the last bit is relevant? You seem like you know that its more of an incompatibility thing.

How often does this happen? Is it something you think it's necessary to split up over or can you reach a compromise.

I'm not justifying anyones behaviour, I just can't see how its that relevant what another poster would allow in their marriage. You need to find out what works in your relationship.

Married 15 years, together 20. Never shouted or sworn at each other.

I'm amazed so many people think it's normal. :-(

Sounds like you were both as bad. You were definitely winding him up, and he was totally wrong to react the way he did. There seems to be a mutual lack of respect.

MamaPain I agree with what you said about different couples - in the case of one of the couples I know who shout and swear at each other and don't mind this, she would be very upset if her partner commented on her weight, whereas I wouldn't mind this at all.

I would much rather compromise than split up over it, but we haven't found a way to resolve the incompatibility so it seems like flogging a dead horse sometimes. And it would be much easier if we were with someone with similar attitudes to ourselves to begin with, rather than having to work through it. On the other hand, we are very compatible in other areas of our relationship, which we might not have been with other partners more similar in attitude about shouting, etc.

Any tips on how to address his 'rantiness' (don't think that's an actual word ) without a massive row and so he actually sees my point of view and stops doing it?

I think that the most important tip is not to attempt this during the argument itself.

Sorry LingDiLong. I meant no offence, it is just so outside my experience it sounds odd to me.

Snowy, now you are telling us he has a 'woman' problem. Well, you can cope with that if you want to. Plenty of women do, especially our mums (grandmothers, maybe) .

If he dislikes bossy women then you are going to have to choose to either stop annoying him or to educate/train him better. It is possible that neither of those 2 options will work for you. So then you are left with rub along and put up with it or take a deep breath and move on/out. Again, options that many women make and survive, often very happily.

For those who thing the rub along option is crap - I know how it sounds - it does work well for lots of people. Compromise always makes a relationship. Each individual has to decide how much compromise is enough.

See this is the problem with 'addressing his rantiness', you can't can you? Because you are fundamentally scared/anxious about invoking another row. You should be able to tell him honestly how you feel but you can't because he'll just start screaming at you. I have no experience of having to tiptoe around someone's horrible temper so I can't give you any pointers on how to 'manage' someone like that. Are you supposed to scream louder? Maybe you should have a baseball bat to hand so if he threatens a slap you can go one better?

CoffeeTea103 Although I accept that I may have been partly in the wrong today, I didn't feel that what I did showed a lack of respect or was winding him up (at least not deliberately). It was more that I was challenging his ranting, and then got a mouthful back in return.

No... you just wait until they breathe in.... or stop talking cos they think they have made a devastatingly good point, then you calmly ask your considered question.

It may take 3 or 4 attempts but you can always find a way to dissipate the worst of tempers and have a measured discussion.

We do.... but often you have to wait for what went up to come back down. Most people have feelings that can be hurt, if you hurt them you have to expect to be shouted/sulked at. But adults who want to can talk it out and get to a resolution.

Again, how much of that you can do depends entirely on the two people involved wanting the relationship to work well.

It's difficult for me to work out how you can address it, I'm not you and presumably one of the problems you have is that you can't being it up without him kicking off and you becoming so upset by that, so the conversation doesn't continue.

Could you try writing it down? So everything you want to say is there. Email it to him when you're out then he can take time to read it without you having to deal without.

I think you would have to do more than just say you find it unacceptable, you need to articulate why you find it so upsetting.

The thing is, I don't know why I find it so upsetting, I just really don't like being shouted and sworn at. So I can't really articulate to him why I find it unacceptable. And actually I could take it much better from other people, but find it upsetting from my DP.

Ooh! Could you write it down? I don't think I could do that. It becomes permanent, immortalised, unchanging.

An argument is supposed to be experienced and then to blow over.

But you are right MamaPain, we who do argue find our own way of doing it. And yes, you have to explain why you find it upsetting. When you do that you have to remember not to be unspeakably polite. If he makes you feel scared, lonely and lost say those words. I made that mistake, many moons ago. OH has also worked it out, so we can now have flash rows and then comfortable discussions about difficult things, rather than eking the argument out over an hour or so.

So, nomama, the OP has to take responsibility for 'dissipating his temper', she has to remain calm whatever he throws at her? She has to wait for a break in the ranting, at which point she can ask him something but has to do it very carefully so as not to set him off again?

And if she's very lucky he will calm down enough to allow her to express an opinion? If he doesn't then, presumably, it's her fault and responsibility for not asking her question in a 'considered' enough way?

And this is how happy, healthy, equal relationships work is it?

That reminds me.

Our breakthrough happened when we ere shouting about manners. He said that he lived with me and loved me so would always be polite. People he worked with didn't matter to him so he could be shouty and rude to them.

Whereas I (teacher) have to remain unswervingly polite to all and sundry at work, so getting home I feel a great sense of relief not to have to be so uptight. Being shouty and rude is a catharsis and I love him enough to trust him not to hold it against me.

Ok what about how it upsets you?

Does it scare you? Does it make you feel unloved/threatened? At least try and express how you feel.

Its difficult to put forward a point with just the argument that you don't like it because you're talking to someone who equally as much as you can't explain why you don't like it, can't see whats wrong with it.

The fact DH and I shout and scream and swear like its nothing makes me feel really secure in our relationship. We do that and 5 minutes later we're fine and laughing so it makes me feel like we love each other unconditionally, like he's seen my worst and still loves me. Also I see it as a true expression of feeling so I feel like I get to see the real him and that we have a relationship which is open and honest.

Take some time, work out how you properly feel about the issue before you talk to your DP.

x-post. Snowycakes, the reason why you are struggling to articulate why being screamed at makes you upset is because it's so blindingly obvious and completely natural to find that kind of behaviour upsetting. You shouldn't have to explain yourself. 'When you shout and swear it upsets me' should be enough in itself.

No LingDeLong. That's not what I meant at all. She has no responsibility that she doesn't want to pick up.

Both OH and I use that tactic, it depends which of us got grumpy. I said nothing about if she gets lucky and he allows anything. That is your reading of something you have already said you have no experience of!

I have already repeated that it takes 2 people to make it work and that snowy has to decide for herself how much she will/can put up with.

If you wish to read something more pathetic and gendered into that, feel free. But you will be reading into my posts something I have not said and do not believe.