to wonder whether it is ever acceptable to shout and swear at your partner?

[snowycakes]

Genuine question. I have only been in one (10 year) relationship so want some outside perspective and am not just looking for validation!

When DP gets annoyed about things he tends to shout and swear at me, although I have told him I don't find it acceptable, and he knows it really upsets me. However, he says that I provoke him to do it and that it's a natural reaction to being wound up. I really don't like it, but is it just a part of being a couple that I should accept if I do/say something that annoys him?

I obviously do things that he doesn't like as well, and am far from being perfect.

This sounds really petty (and long sorry!), but as an example: this morning DP was really hungry by about 11am (he hadn't had breakfast) and suggested going to get takeaway pizza for lunch before he had to go to work at 2. I agreed but said that it was a bit early for lunch - and the pizza place wasn't even open at that point. The house has been a tip all week (both of our stuff) so I wanted us to do a bit of tidying up before we went. He watched TV most of the morning and then at 12 said he was going for lunch with or without me - I said I wanted to finish the tidying up I was doing for 5 minutes and then I'd be ready. He got really stroppy and started ranting about how tidying up ruined his day, there's no point in doing it as things only get messy again, he was really hungry, and he would have to rush his lunch before work, etc. So I got in the car to go with him, and asked him why he was acting like a stroppy teenager (which obviously wound him up) about having to tidy up and the fact that he hadn't had lunch before midday! He started raising his voice and ranting for ages. In between the ranting I asked him to stop shouting and swearing at me and asked why he was acting like this. He then ranted about how he wasn't shouting etc. I said that he was (he was raising his voice aggressively), and asked him to stop. He then got really angry and started properly roaring at me, swearing, saying stuff like, "Do you want a f slap?" "THIS is shouting, I didn't make you cry before so I can't have been shouting!" After he had calmed down he stuck by what he did, and said that it was my fault and I deserved it as I had wound him up, and if I had provoked anyone else like that I would have got punched.

Obviously I'm not perfect (and wasn't blameless this morning) and do things that he doesn't like or that annoy him, but I still don't think it's acceptable to have to be shouted/sworn at - however annoying you are! Am I just being hyper-sensitive? My Dad did it a lot when I was younger, to me and (less often) my Mum.

So I think what I really want to know is, is shouting and swearing something that happens in all couples when the man (or the woman) gets annoyed - or is it something that shouldn't be put up with?

I would agree with the whole incompatibility thing as this was me and my ex. We got to the point where we couldn't deal with anything properly - I would get p'd off with something and rant, he would rant back, I'd get p'd off he didn't listen, huge argument....

I look back and regret some of my behavior but equally, he wound me up and I can't see myself of reacting any differently. He wanted me to be like his mum and sister and do everything around the house and it was never going to happen.

I deal with stuff completely differently with my dp because I feel we are more compatible and listen to each other.

I am a yeller when I get furious and even swear. Of course I know it's unacceptable in that you shouldn't do it. But I think it depends on the way you are brought up. If you had parents that didn't yell and argue and get furious with each other I think it's a lot harder when that happens in a partner.

So, genuine question here for those who think screaming and swearing is normal, what is the difference between the OP's relationship and an abusive relationship?

I can see the difference between an abusive relationship and a couple who BOTH yell at each other. That's not what we have here though is it? We have one partner screaming and swearing and threatening 'a fucking slap' and another partner upset and feeling like she can't address it because she'll end up getting screamed at again. How is this not abusive? Explain it very simply to me in words of one syllable because I'm not getting it.

No, it's not acceptable to behave like that. I do understand that occasionally people lose their temper (well, some people) but he seems to have lost it with you at very slight provocation.

I wouldn't put up with someone threatening me with a slap.

I also wouldn't have children with someone like that. Someone who flies off the handle so easily is going to shout and swear at children too (and small children can be very provoking). It will just be a horribly upsetting environment for them to grow up in.

He then got really angry and started properly roaring at me, swearing, saying stuff like, "Do you want a f** slap?" "THIS is shouting, I didn't make you cry before so I can't have been shouting!" After he had calmed down he stuck by what he did, and said that it was my fault and I deserved it as I had wound him up, and if I had provoked anyone else like that I would have got punched.

That's horrendous. He threatened you with violence, said if you weren't crying it wasn't proper shouting, and then justified all this by saying anyone else would have punched you so actually he wasn't being an abusive, misogynist shitbag? Not normal, not okay. Abusive and horrible.

DH and I very occasionally shout. Last time was because he was refusing to pack up some of his books, when we had a baby on the way and just not enough space (seriously - more books in this house than I can begin to describe) and a musty smell was worrying me, especially in a room intended for a small child - and I knew he'd just pretend it wasn't happening and leave his stuff there, unless I forced the issue. Turned out there was black mould growing behind some of the shelves, and he then worked his backside off cleaning the place and arranging carpet cleaners and apologised profusely. And that's the sort of thing we fight over, and it's all specific to the actual problem, not personal insults, let alone threats!

My ds sometimes gets a bit tantrumy when he is hungry, but he isn't 2 yet, if my dp behaved like this, he would be out on his arse. I cannot believe you want to start a family with this twat, imagine that it was your defenceless child that he was screaming and swearing at, would that be ok?

Timing, maybe? And both of them wanting to work it out.

Abusive is when one decides it a behaviour not acceptable. Snowy is in the process of deciding the boundaries in her relationship. We all have different ideas on where they should be, She is entitled to ask for and receive a broad range of views.

Whilst they are new to the whole routine and neither of them have discussed it, thought about it or decided what can/should be done it is 'just' a difficult patch and needs working on - BOTH OF THEM.

The threat makes it more important for snowy to evaluate it for herself, which is what she is doing here, isn't it?

I'd just clarify, screaming and swearing in and of itself is a normal human behaviour. We all do it, sometimes, all through our lives - unless we exert huge control and/or completely repress our emotions, which is just as abnormal and damaging as being totally out of control.

Please don't have children with him, he'll be a hundred times worse and it will be impossible for you to escape. If he'll tantrum, verbally abuse you and tell you how lucky you are not to be hit over something so petty, imagine what he's going to be like with sleep deprivation from a newborn, when the baby won't stop crying, when it grows into a toddler having their own tantrums.

Find someone who can communicate like a normal, respectful human being.

I don't know why I find it so upsetting, I just really don't like being shouted and sworn at. So I can't really articulate to him why I find it unacceptable.

But it's designed to be upsetting! He even said if he wasn't making you cry it didn't count - as in, he clearly wasn't being nasty enough! He threatened to hit you, then said anyone else would have. Seriously, asking why that was "so upsetting" is like asking whether it's unreasonable to think that pain hurts. Aggression such as you describe is meant, intended and designed to be distressing, scary and horrible. That's the point. When DH and I shout, even though it's on a different scale, it's to get a point across when nothing else will and in a very, very forceful way. When you tell a kid off, you expect it to be unpleasant.

The point of that sort of aggression is to control an outcome in some way. To prevent someone doing something you really dislike, or to vent some anger from someone or something else. It's not meant to be neutral for anyone in the path. And to have to explain that to the person doing it to you is just insult to injury, quite frankly.

Whilst they are new to the whole routine and neither of them have discussed it, thought about it or decided what can/should be done it is 'just' a difficult patch and needs working on - BOTH OF THEM.

Sorry, but I think that's a bonkers piece of advice. This is not a shouting match about an event, or situation, in which the focus is on whatever was the problem to start with. It's an aggressive and extremely personal verbal attack on someone, which threatens physical violence, and then even afterwards he stated he felt her behaviour would justify a punch and anyone else would have done so. Which shows a real comfort with the concept of domestic violence which I personally think is alarming.

I wouldn't walk away from someone like that. I'd run. The old saying that when someone tells you who they are you should believe them applies here - in spades.

"do you want a slap"

That is completely unacceptable.

I would leave someone who said that to me.

But equally DP is quite negative about his friends or brothers' girlfriends being 'bossy/annoying' and would say he could see why their partners would get angry with them. So I don't know whether it's just a difference in our opinion as to what's acceptable.

Does he get that way about male friends and relatives, too? Or is it just women he has negative opinions on? I'm sure you'll see where I am headed with this one. DH finds some people annoying/bossy, but it's never more likely to be a woman than a man. And I think, if you are with someone who is negative about women who express opinions, and thinks strongly voiced anger aimed at them for that is fine... well, again, when someone tells you who they are etc etc etc.

Ye gods! You lot are so bloody certain and judgmental.

Snowycakes needs to think this through for herself and, rightly, asked if others had shouty relationships so she could judge her man's behaviours. A couple of us have been honest enough to outline our own shouty lives so she can judge his tanty for herself.

He may well be a lost cause, but that is her decision to make. Without information and perspective snowycakes has no way of thinking this through satisfactorily. She has already said she doesn't want to discuss it in real life. Now some of you are stopping her from getting a discussion here - that needs to be 2 sided, not just a blanket condemnation.

I'm shocked at people discussing this as if it was a wee bicker. He threatened to slap her! DH and I might have slightly raised voices very occasionally but neither of us had ever sworn at, threatened or insulted the other. If he spoke to me as OP has been spoken to I would think he'd lost his mind.
What an awful way to live. I would genuinely leave.

Ye gods! You lot are so bloody certain and judgmental.

And you're an apologist for threatening, abusive behaviour.

I don't think anyone has said it was a wee bicker.

imagine that it was your defenceless child that he was screaming and swearing at, would that be ok?

No it wouldn't be ok, and I would leave anyone who did that. But I don't know whether it's ok between us as adults - from this discussion I can see there are a wide range of perspectives (thank you ), and it's difficult to decide what's acceptable for me. If our relationship was like that all the time it would obviously be a horrible life to have and I would leave. But it isn't.

I did say to DP earlier that I didn't think it was acceptable, but would think properly about whether I was right in thinking that or not. He thinks it's justifiable as I wound him up - I asked him if he would be prepared to consider whether what he did/said might not have been acceptable, and he said no. However he was still quite annoyed when he left for work, so when he comes home later he might be thinking differently.

I'm debating whether to show him this thread - would it be naïve of me to think that might help?

Ye gods! You lot are so bloody certain and judgmental.

Yes. I think domestic abuse is unacceptable, and that nobody should have to tolerate it. Shocking, I know.

You had me at DO YOU WANT A FUCKING SLAP. you shoukd have said NO. I WANT A FUCKING DIVORCE. Fuck him. Ltb

Ah well! If that is how you want to see it, you are perfectly entitled, pumpkin.

But you are wrong. I am just trying to help someone find a way to think about a situation she dislikes. Without trying to sway her opinion or persuade her that she is wrong to make up her own mind.

LTB is not always the right answer.

It is not normal to suggest that anyone else would give your partner a slap. DH and I get angry with each other, and now and then we will have a good shout. But he would never say that anyone else would give me a slap for that. Dear god, how is that normal in anyone's world?

DH and I have been together for about 8 years and never swear at each other and have probably shouted twice.

You need to sort this out if you are going to have children or else your DH will be doing the shouting and swearing and threatening behaviour in front of them and maybe even directed at them. I don't think that's the sort of life your children need or deserve. Do you?

Personally I think his behaviour is abusive and disgusting. You are not responsible for his lack of control over his temper.

Ah well! If that is how you want to see it, you are perfectly entitled, pumpkin.

But you are wrong.

Forgive me, but the day I want to take advice from someone who freely says they find it "cathartic" to come home and kick the dog scream and swear at their partner, then I'll know I have serious issues.

Screaming and shouting at someone in the manner described is not okay, normal or healthy. You can insist it is until you're blue in the face, but I'm afraid the definition of domestic abuse would squarely encompass this. He threatened to hit her, while screaming that he wasn't properly shouting before because he'd not made her cry before. He told her afterwards that she provoked him, and that anyone else would have punched her. That is not normal. It is anything but. It would count, legally, as common assault. That's how "normal" it is.

Snowycakes, I'm not sure what showing him the thread would achieve? Is this what YOU want your relationship to be like? It would appear not. He is unwilling to even consider that his behaviour is unacceptable. Further more you seem to be unable to even discuss it with him for fear of him losing his temper again. I can't see how this thread will change the situation you are in. I can quite imagine him focusing entirely on Nomama et al's posts and taking them as proof that you 'provoked' him somehow and deserved to be screamed at.

Ah well.

I shall bow out and leave the thread to the LTBs.

Good luck OP.