*SENSITIVE* AIBU to think some people come across as ignorant nobs about suicide? *TRIGGERS*

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FB (sorry!) friend posted a status update complaining about being late home last night because someone threw themselves under their train. She and one of her FB friends (who I don't know) swapped several comments which included the phrases "selfish", "inconsiderate", "I would quite like to get home and enjoy my life thank you very much" etc.

I posted fairly mildly saying that it must have been frustrating but at least it was a minor inconvenience for her in the scheme of things and it was safe to say the other person, not to mention the driver, had had a far worse day. FB friend then claimed it was "light-hearted" and said they could post what they liked on their own news feed. I said that for some people, there is nothing "light-hearted" about suicide and they couldn't guarantee some of those people wouldn't be using social media; if they chose to post about a sensitive subject they could expect to get pulled up on it.

It wasn't long before I was accused (by FB friend's friend IYSWIM) of being "PC" (oh, how original) and of "attacking" my friend. I reiterated that this was an emotive subject and that maybe they should step back, re-read with an open mind and see that they weren't coming across as very empathic. And then I left it as it was starting to get to me.

AIBU to think that a woman in her 30s should have a bit more compassion about someone in the absolute depths of despair? Or am I being a sanctimonious old trout and "dictating" (that word was used too) what people can and can't say on their FB timeline?

I think if she'd said "sorry, I know I came across as a bit me me me - I was just letting off steam" it wouldn't have bothered me, but to use the word "light-hearted" as self-justification (there was nothing inherently humorous, OTT-for-effect or anything else to suggest light-heartedness about her OP - just a straight rant at have her evening plans disrupted) seemed totally inappropriate.

Kudos to you for admitting that, CM.

I think you're being focused on by some of us because your views are being expressed quite stridently and forcefully, as though yours is the "one true way" to think about suicide and MH. It's hardly surprising you feel so strongly about something that has had such a profound effect on you, but it's important to remember that it is your experience, it's not a blueprint for coping - or otherwise - with mental illness.

I might be totally off the mark but I think what is important here is the mentality behind couthys thoughts and experience are predominantly that of a 10 year old. When you experience trauma at such a young age and then to have gone through the things she has it is very difficult to change your views. You've grown up with them.

I genuinely don't think she is trying to offend anyone on purpose.

Back now, having composed myself.

Couthy is apparently determined to repeat herself ad nauseum, seriously upsetting a lot of people with every single post.

Re: treatment it is also more subtle than just treatment / non-treatment. My mum had been in and out of inpatient care, on medication, under psychiatrists and psychologists for as long as I can remember. Sometimes she was compliant (hate that word); sometimes she wasn't. When she died she was taking a sub-therapeutic dose of lithium. By the time I realised she had dropped her meds it was too late. Is this why she did what she did? I won't ever know.

I am bereft that she is gone, but I could never for one minute say she was selfish. I found it incredibly frustrating trying to pursuade her to increase her meds, but they made her feel so terrible. She was in an impossible position. Sometimes the treatment is no better than the illness. She had been round the cycle of illness/wellness (often with long periods of being very well) so often that I think she just lost all hope.

So Couthy, you are a much less selfish person than James. Lucky you. You didn't act on your selfish thoughts.

How dare you say that my son or MrsDeVere's daughter are selfish for wanting to die on their terms.

We live with the loss of our children everyday, it fucking hurts. It kills me a little bit more everyday.

My son is dead because he was ill. Not because he had selfish thoughts and acted on them.

You really have no idea do you?

Couthy, I get where you're coming from.

I posted the above before seeing Couthy's latest post.

Mum and MrsDV [flower] and a huge hug to you both.

Us HCP's grieve too for your losses and wish we could have done so much more.

Goddamn these government cuts to MH services - they are killing people and making it impossible for my colleagues to do their jobs. I left for a career break and many others are doing so - some with mental health problems as severe as many of their clients now because of stress.

Suicide is personal and individual,reasons located in that individual.different reason each person
Couthymow isn't wrong,she recounting her experience,her rationale
The narrative is different fir everyone

Yes it is hard to be objective when you have personal experience but to keep coming back and insulting more people.....

Hi dawn I have now read the thread (to your post) I am not saying suicide is selfish I am saying to kill yourself by train is.

I have been very very mentally Ill and psychotic and will never be "better" although I have not been that ill for a while so I think I can talk about this subject (but understand not everyone will agree with me)

I have recently lost a family member to suicide so have seen both sides.

I support a world where people have the right without judgment to end their suffering. I do not condone suicide in anyway I firmly believe some people do not have a choice they just can't live any longer.

Who are you addressing?

A friend of mine had someone kill themselves by walking in front of their car.

It cost my friend his job, his family, and a huge chunk of his mental stability. The parents of the suicide said something like "at least he (the suicide) is out of his misery".

Whatever the man's state of mind when he killed himself he had no right to include a stranger in his desire to die.

I understand that it is different for everyone. I object to her blanket approach. My experience and those of James' loved ones is no less valid than hers.

I don't appreciate being told that my son was selfish and that is that. I appreciate that her experiences have left her feeling a certain way but that doesn't give her the right to upset people who have different views.

If you are a victim of suicide, you understand some of the pain and anguish people go through. If it was your parent when you were a child your voice on this matter is likely to reflect a lifetime of reasoned conclusions and is probably particularly credible.

Imagine time spent where the internal conflicts was whether you were to blame, were unlovable, were too horrible a person intrinsically for even your own mummy or daddy to stay alive for you, all when you were a babby.

If we're all about how everyone else is to blame and you have everyone's deepest sympathy if you choose to destroy yourself, that is not exactly healthy for the victims of this act who are left behind.

She maybe feels like people saying it isn't selfish is an insult to her feelings also.

I can see why Couthy believes it to be selfish. To her it was the one person standing between her and abuse that took his life. It was the one person in the world left to protect her.

Although the hurt and heartbreaks is the same the situations are different.

I am not saying for one second than it hurts less for anyone else because losing a child must be one of the worst things to go through. I couldn't even begin to imagine.

I do think that our personal situations taint or view point.

I was relatively young when a member of my family took their life. I have gone through every emotion of anger, hurt, thinking it was selfish to acceptance and having made peace with it.

As a woman I can see why and how someone could get to the point of no return. As a child and as a teenage there were often times that I couldn't.

And equally as uncomfortable as Couthymow opinion is for some to hear,it's her lived experience
It's her narrative of how she felt. That is her genuine truth

It's unedifying to be arguing over suicide

dawn you've only copied part of the sentence the important part was not that the person ended their life it that they chose to do it in a public way which does drag other people into it.

Again I do not have an issue or judgment on people who commit suicide.

Iv been there and totally get the unselfish thought process around it. I'm just in the position that it didn't work so I'm still here.

Sadly I have experience on both sides of the coin as a relative and a MH professional with an overview of thousands and thousands of families, clients and the people who work with them.

I will never accept it as a selfish act.

I lost my son division I couldn't keep my son alive.

I have spent many many hours trying to imagine how I failed my son so badly that he died.

I have spent many sleepless nights blaming myself. What kind of mother lets her child die?

I sent my other son to the flat to find him. I didn't know that was what was going to happen but it did. I have spent the last 18 months reliving the moment that I asked him to go.

I allowed my youngest son to find his dead brother. What kind of mother does that?

I am a 'victim' of suicide. I live with James' death everyday. I have to live the rest of my life without my eldest son. I blame myself every single day.

It still doesn't make me think that what James did was selfish.

We've already said there is nothing wrong with talking of lived experience. But to then apply it without an objective base to the loved ones of every single suicide, like in the World, Ever, is wrong.

If I was speaking from my own personal experience to say all suicide is NOT selfish, I'd be as wrong. But I do have an objective overview that tells me that it is not a selfish act; that people do not always even know they are unwell and that often they genuinely believe the world and their families are better off without them. Oh and quite a few people don't have supportive families for many many reasons.

mumof2teenboys. What you live with is unimaginably hard.

Psychosis is a terrifying place to be. My recurrent, ongoing depression has become psychotic twice. On one of these occasions it was noticed and I was hospitalised. On the other occasion, the voice in my head helped me to keep it secret until the day my dh realised that I was unwell, came home early and found me - and I spent 3 days in intensive care.

I'm glad to be alive now. But back then I wasn't selfish. I wasn't rational at all. My thinking was so very disordered (I genuinely thought my dead grandfather was talking to me inside my head!) that selfish or not selfish didn't enter into it, and I had (and still have) a fantastic husband and 3 amazing kids to live for, as well as myself.

I see suicide as a desperate act, not a selfish one. I couldn't have accessed the help Couthy mentions - I was not in any way capable of thinking at that level. I honestly had no insight that I was that ill. I suspect, that as psychotic depression is under diagnosed, that more people kill themselves when they are suffering this than we are aware.

Luckily I went on to get a proper diagnosis (after this it was recognised that it wasn't just a leftover of the PND which had put me in hospital after dd1 was born) and some very specialist therapy, and though I will be under consultant psychiatrist and psychologist care for the rest of my life, I am glad to be alive! (Even though I've spent 2 days cleaning up after 3 dc with d&v!!).

Firstly, I'm struggling to think of a suicide method that doesn't involve someone else at some stage, even if the person who dies had no friends or family to care. Even throwing yourself from a ship out at sea doesn't mean that your remains will not turn up on a beach somewhere and traumatise someone and need disposal by someone.

Secondly, it is vitally important to believe that your chosen method will result in your death, not in injuries that may make it impossible to make another, successful attempt. I was upset to read, recently, that even jumping from Beachy Head isn't 100% certain death and people have "survived" in a sense, but been in a persistant vegetative state or quadraplegic, for example.

Having been suicidal and therefore experienced that degree of pain I need to know there is an escape route to oblivion should I be in total agony again. Few things are as certain as going under a train. Jumping from a skyscraper is also certain, but endangers lives.

division no that wouldn't be healthy, because trying to attribute blame in relation to suicide, or assign guilt, or determine selfish intent, is not healthy either. Deaths by suicide are in the greater part (I'm being careful not to over-generalise here) deaths resulting from an illness, as has already been said many times on this thread. Blame should not come into it at all.