*SENSITIVE* AIBU to think some people come across as ignorant nobs about suicide? *TRIGGERS*

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FB (sorry!) friend posted a status update complaining about being late home last night because someone threw themselves under their train. She and one of her FB friends (who I don't know) swapped several comments which included the phrases "selfish", "inconsiderate", "I would quite like to get home and enjoy my life thank you very much" etc.

I posted fairly mildly saying that it must have been frustrating but at least it was a minor inconvenience for her in the scheme of things and it was safe to say the other person, not to mention the driver, had had a far worse day. FB friend then claimed it was "light-hearted" and said they could post what they liked on their own news feed. I said that for some people, there is nothing "light-hearted" about suicide and they couldn't guarantee some of those people wouldn't be using social media; if they chose to post about a sensitive subject they could expect to get pulled up on it.

It wasn't long before I was accused (by FB friend's friend IYSWIM) of being "PC" (oh, how original) and of "attacking" my friend. I reiterated that this was an emotive subject and that maybe they should step back, re-read with an open mind and see that they weren't coming across as very empathic. And then I left it as it was starting to get to me.

AIBU to think that a woman in her 30s should have a bit more compassion about someone in the absolute depths of despair? Or am I being a sanctimonious old trout and "dictating" (that word was used too) what people can and can't say on their FB timeline?

I think if she'd said "sorry, I know I came across as a bit me me me - I was just letting off steam" it wouldn't have bothered me, but to use the word "light-hearted" as self-justification (there was nothing inherently humorous, OTT-for-effect or anything else to suggest light-heartedness about her OP - just a straight rant at have her evening plans disrupted) seemed totally inappropriate.

Yabu to get involved with FB stuff.

Many of us cause our own death - by smoking, or overeating, perhaps - leaving family behind and causing distress. But ire is reserved for those committing suicide. Perverse.

They do not know it was a suicide. Train companies and Network Rail do not say if it is it, they do not even use the word fatality if it can be avoided, as it causes copy cats. I know on Saturday night a 15 year old girl was killed, when she crossed the tracks as she was on the wrong platform, and ducked under the couplings of two attached trains as it began to pull off. She died horrifically. The impact on the staff has been awful. Her family are destroyed. It was a silly, thoughtless act that ended in the worst way.
YANBU. They do not know the facts. If they post publicly, they should expect a response.

Yanbu

The selfish argument can go around and around but I don't believe a person who is so far gone enough to carry out suicide even has the capacity to stop and think about the likes of the train driver etc..

I don't believe a person who is so far gone enough to carry out suicide even has the capacity to stop and think about the likes of the train driver etc

This 100%.

One of my friends committed suicide a few years ago by walking in front of a car. One of my friends (not a mutual one) said 'the one I feel sorry for is the car driver' and another one said 'it's such a selfish thing to do, somebody had to go and pick up her body parts from the road'.

Of course it's dreadful for the driver and the emergency services, but my main concern was my lovely friend who had been involuntarily discharged from a psychiatric unit the previous day and felt she had no choice but to end her life.

BTW, not entirely relevant to this thread, but her brother had committed suicide the previous year and her parents hung themselves a few months after she died, leaving behind one daughter out of a family of five.

YANBU.

My grandmother killed herself when I was 13 - she'd been trying for a good 40 years at that point, probably more. She didn't think about the effect on her family, she couldn't - the mental illness she'd suffered for so long wouldn't allow that. All she wanted was for the horror inside her to stop. Not so selfish.

Suicide is NOT selfish, it is an act carried out when there is no options (as they see it) left to the person. Of course it has wider repercussions but it is never done to cause any delay to someones journey home. It is done because someone is so ill that they cannot see beyond their own pain and suffering.

Suicide is not selfish, silly, thoughtless or any of the many derogatory adjectives often associated with the word, it is borne of desperation. The person who carries through the act is suffering from acute mental illness at that point - no sane or rational person is going to throw their body under a train, off a bridge or jump from an attic with a rope around their neck. People who carry through with these desperate acts have lost all rationality as their suffering has overwhelmed them.

This time of year is poignant for me as a result of suicide.

The idea that the life of my - or anyone else's - lost one was so unbearable that he couldn't appreciate the pleasure of hearing birds sing, or want to live another day to see the beauty of the sun rising is something that I cannot comprehend, and hope that I never do.

My memories of him are of an incredibly kind, considerate and supportive uncle, brother and son with a great sense of humour. We were very close although he kept his burdens concealed. For various reasons, he thought his life was worthless and he dreaded becoming a burden to me. His motive to take his life was not selfish. It was - in his disordered mind - a practical way to lessen my responsibilities. I am left with endless sadness that somebody I cared for deeply suffered so desperately that ending his life was the only action his mind would allow him to consider appropriate

To all those who appear to have no empathy for anyone suffering in such hellish desperation - I hope you never have to live with the knowledge that somebody you love feels their life is so worthless that their death will only enrich those left behind.

Yanbu. I've pulled people up on this on Facebook too, but luckily I haven't been attacked for it. Your friend's friend sounds charming .

Lack of sympathy perhaps, but I have more sympathy with the emergency services who have to clear up afterwards and the family of that person who's killed themselves. My best friend has had to clean up suicides on the railways and this includes carrying a bag to pick up the pieces, he says it doesn't really sink in that it was a person as the clothes are sometimes torn off them and you think you're picking up bits of meat from a pig etc.

It's a horrible way to describe it, but you can imagine the affect that has on people, he was depressed for years after this incident and has had to do something similar recently.

Yes I feel sorry for someone who feels they have to do it, but my word couldn't they find a less horrifying way?

I think to say it isn't ever a selfish act is wrong.

In a minority of cases it can come about by selfish motives. I have seen this once in my life unfortunately. The example I am talking about is someone who did not actually intend suicide, it was someone who did the cry for help and text her ex boyfriend telling him what she had done. Unfortunately he was asleep at the time and by the time he received the message their was nothing he could do.

However normally it is a desperate act. I lost a family member to suicide, there was no note. I always remember asking why you wouldn't leave a note and the response was "If he had stopped to think about writing a note he wouldn't have done it." It's a heartbreaking thing to lose someone to.

It's a terrible thing for everyone concerned but in the majority of cases I don't think selfishness comes into it.

Just my opinion.

If your FB friend and her friend are in fact averagely empathetic adults, they are doing an excellent job of hiding it.

I was a Londoner for years, and yes, I would often have a moment of private impatience when I was in a hurry and stuck somewhere on a crowded tube because someone had thrown themselves (or fallen - the announcements obviously don't specify) under a train, which happened with alarming frequency. BUT I knew that somewhere down the line was the aftermath of an appalling accident or the death of someone ill or desperate, and my minor inconvenience was nothing. I imagine I am fairly typical of London public transport users.

My uncle committed suicide. He had probably considered it before he eventually did it. It was not by train but nonetheless awful for my auntie who found him. If you've seen the film Made in Dagenham the circumstances were similar to the man played by Roger Lloyd Pack. I have trouble with people being twatty about suicide. It was a long time ago now but it's awful to think how traumatised he must have been to think that was the best option.

Yes I feel sorry for someone who feels they have to do it, but my word couldn't they find a less horrifying way?

Really? Do you think that in that state of mind they are really thinking about the implications?

People in this mental state usually view themselves as worthless and think they are doing the world a favour. They aren't thinking rationally full stop.

Sorry, didn't mean to post and run.

Horatia, "Suicide has selfish consequences but is unlikely to have resulted from selfish motives" is the perfect description and I may borrow it in future.

The vast majority of responses here have restored my faith in the empathy of humankind.

Okay...If suicide is selfish then how would you explain this?

A person with a psychotic illness who believes they are so inherently evil that they personally are responsible for global warming. This person eventually goes on to commit suicide because they feel it is the only way they can save the world.;

People with such severe Depression that they cannot conceive of being anything other than a burden on their families and the World. They genuinely believe that the World will be better off without them and that claims to the contrary are white lies because we cannot be straight with them. They kill themselves to spare others.

I have known many patients who have eventually gone on to commit suicide over the last near 30 years. Not one of them was selfish.

When my son committed suicide, he wasn't thinking of who would find him, he actually hung himself in his flat where he lived alone. He had switched his phone of and was not contactable.

He wanted his pain to stop, he couldn't see beyond the situation he was in.

He couldn't/didn't think of anything other than ending his pain. Did that make him selfish? No. it made him ill and hurting.

His brother broke into the flat and found him, horrifying for his brother and the police who were called. Horrifying for the paramedics and the funeral directors who took him away.

Nowhere near as horrifying as thinking that hanging yourself is the only way to end your pain.

A former colleague of mine threw himself under a train. People do that because it's effective, I suspect.

When computer programmer Bill Zeller killed himself, he wrote this in his suicide note (which circulated widely online):

"People say suicide is selfish. I think it's selfish to ask people to continue living painful and miserable lives, just so you possibly won't feel sad for a week or two."

I agree. And I have attempted suicide before and have struggled with wanting to do so again - anyone who thinks it's selfish to be at breaking point, to be in so much emotional pain that you want to stop living, to feel so much pain at the very core of your being, is lucky that they don't know how it feels.

So YANBU.

I think YANBU, but you are never going to convince someone on FB having a 'light-hearted' conversation that they are being insensitive. It's best just to let it go.

I think the selfish label comes up because people need a way of releasing their anger at the person -- and yes, there is anger sometimes, on the part of loved ones, who know the person was amazing and had everything to live for but still chose this way out. (I emphasise sometimes because circumstances differ so much, obviously this doesn't describe everyone.)

It's not just suicide either -- my uncle has just been diagnosed with emphysema, after 45 years of smoking 2 packs a day. Obviously everyone is very upset but deep down there is anger too and yes, I know some people are thinking of him as selfish.

Death and grief are complicated. Obviously these FB people were just being stupid but you can't always assume people don't have reasons for feeling as they do.

I'm very sorry for the losses people on this thread have suffered.

Apologies if this is a bad analogy but, when I was in labour, there was about an hour when I was in utter physical agony, and I would have done anything to make my pain stop. I remember thinking it was a shame I couldn't reach the window because jumping out would end my agony. No matter that I had a loving family and everything to live for.

Suicidal people are in mental agony, and the imperative to end that pain can be just as immediate.

mum I am so sorry.

I loathe people who say this crap about jumpers. How can they be so obstinate as to refuse to understand the horror in the mind of the person who saw no better option.

I think "death by mental illness" is by far a more apt and compassionate description for taking your own life than "suicide" simply because there are so many extremely negative connotations attached to the term which have been deeply ingrained in society's thinking generally for years and years.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and confess that at different times in the far past I have felt suicidal, and when considering such a thing, I can say, at least in my own experience, that the utter despair and self loathing you feel is such that you think you would be doing those around a favour - that you would be removing a "burden" for them, that you would remove a source of stress and worry for them (and so on). In that respect, it is not a selfish act.

I personally never considered a "method" where anyone else would be directly involved, but I suspect that those who do do so because it is pretty much guaranteed that they will "succeed" - which, IMO, is indicative of how desperate they feel .... that their attempt is not supposed to be "a cry for help", that they don't want to be "found". Rightly or wrongly they probably don't think of the potential dreadful impact upon a driver, or upon the emergency services who have to deal with the aftermath - and that's probably not because they are by nature appallingly selfish and inconsiderate - but because the state of their mind is so damaged by that stage that they literally can't think "straight".

Ironically, my own (young adult) child is now regularly involved in the front line aftermath of "one unders". I worry hugely about the impact on them despite the fact that the very nature of their job makes this task very likely. Apart from having huge respect and admiration for what they do on a daily basis (this and other dangerous or traumatic stuff), my child is pretty matter of fact about it (at least to me, and I hope that's a true reflection of how they feel) ... but whenever we have spoken about it they express nothing but compassion for anyone they've dealt with in such tragic circumstances - there's no blame, no accusations of weakness or selfishness, or complaints about "the job" - just sadness.

By saying that I do NOT mean one bit to diminish the awful repercussions that tube drivers can experience. It's unimaginable and of course I feel terribly sorry for those who develop PTSD and for their families who may also be affected. But I stand by my opinion that anyone in such a state would not be capable of thinking things through properly, and that their more rational undepressed self would have been horrified at causing such mayhem.

Back to the original point of the thread ... I agree that (fucking) Facebook isn't the place for such comment. It's completely crass and insensitive to whinge and moan about the effect on your commute when - quite feasibly - there's a tragic story behind what's happened - and, potentially, a terribly traumatised driver who'd gladly swap getting home an hour or two late for their experience of the day. But then I feel that FB is used in a grossly inappropriate manner - and in all sorts of ways - by many people who "share" offensive opinion and media they otherwise wouldn't dream of subjecting someone to back in the realworld, or by those who air their dirty laundry, or by those who bully etc etc. It seems to lower - or even remove - social inhibitions in some people who don't seem to be able to differentiate between "freedom of speech" and downright offensiveness.

And of course, add to that the fact that a number of people are still shockingly ignorant about, and intolerant of, mental illness anyway and you have a recipe for utter crassness.

First of all, suicide is often caused by illness, which must be treated, and is very sad.

On a purely pragmatic level, the more unforgiving people are about "the coward's way out", the greater the counter to the media and certain political parties lionizing suicides as if they are martyrs.

I feel that while this is beyond horrendous in view of the individuals who have done this, there is now so much glamorization of both suicide (and murder too, actually) in press, music, film etc., so much exploration of how the person really felt and why as if we should reward those acts with the attention befitting a minor rock star, that we have come away from the fact that it is the wanton destructive act of someone very poorly, or if not, the ultimate expression of selfishness and narcissism - that leaves a trail of destruction, heartbreak, perhaps life-long mental health issues and otherwise shattered lives in its wake.

Again, I bear no ill will towards suicides obviously - I believe these are generally ill and need to be treated, but there are children of suicides, mums, dads, siblings, wives, friends - what do we tell them (the people who are, after all, left alive having to deal with it rather than being dead and not knowing anything) when we coddle the memory and the act as if it is the act of a minor saint? We tell them yes, it was ok to do this - it is right that your mummy/husband/whoever could not stay alive out of love for you, etc.