*SENSITIVE* AIBU to think some people come across as ignorant nobs about suicide? *TRIGGERS*

[SelectAUserName]

FB (sorry!) friend posted a status update complaining about being late home last night because someone threw themselves under their train. She and one of her FB friends (who I don't know) swapped several comments which included the phrases "selfish", "inconsiderate", "I would quite like to get home and enjoy my life thank you very much" etc.

I posted fairly mildly saying that it must have been frustrating but at least it was a minor inconvenience for her in the scheme of things and it was safe to say the other person, not to mention the driver, had had a far worse day. FB friend then claimed it was "light-hearted" and said they could post what they liked on their own news feed. I said that for some people, there is nothing "light-hearted" about suicide and they couldn't guarantee some of those people wouldn't be using social media; if they chose to post about a sensitive subject they could expect to get pulled up on it.

It wasn't long before I was accused (by FB friend's friend IYSWIM) of being "PC" (oh, how original) and of "attacking" my friend. I reiterated that this was an emotive subject and that maybe they should step back, re-read with an open mind and see that they weren't coming across as very empathic. And then I left it as it was starting to get to me.

AIBU to think that a woman in her 30s should have a bit more compassion about someone in the absolute depths of despair? Or am I being a sanctimonious old trout and "dictating" (that word was used too) what people can and can't say on their FB timeline?

I think if she'd said "sorry, I know I came across as a bit me me me - I was just letting off steam" it wouldn't have bothered me, but to use the word "light-hearted" as self-justification (there was nothing inherently humorous, OTT-for-effect or anything else to suggest light-heartedness about her OP - just a straight rant at have her evening plans disrupted) seemed totally inappropriate.

What if the help you are offered isn't quite right or is a long wait on a list?

What if you are exhausted by just surviving day to day?

What if you truly, genuinely feel that it all you can do? You believe that there is no option and you are doing the right thing?

My son was loved and treasured, we knew that his diagnosis was not what we (as a family) wanted but we all believed that it would lead to help. It didn't, the system failed him.

We tried to get him more help, but when your children are over the age of 18, there is very little you can do on your own, they have to agree to you intervention.

My son lived as long as he could, he couldn't do it any longer, he was scared and in pain. His thought processes weren't 'normal' that doesn't make him selfish, just too ill to be able to think.

Couthy I know you are a bright, considerate and empathetic person, which is why your unhappiness and personal experience on this matter are attracting attention.

But do you realise you're saying "it's ok for someone mentally ill to commit suicide if they're in treatment, but not if not" ? Because that's how it sounds.

I agree that seeking help should always be encouraged, but you must appreciate that that doesn't happen in a vacuum - there is massive mental health stigma in this country so it isn't like seeking treatment for physical illnesses. Nobody bats an eyelid if a diabetic takes insulin, or painkillers for a broken leg, or whatever. Going into hospital for a gynae procedure gets lots of sympathy and help. But self-admission for MH? UNSTABLE, DANGEROUS, WEIRD. And that social barrier is insurmountable when you can't think straight.

Maybe I CAN'T judge it by my own behaviour - but my dx is and was the same as my Dad's. So maybe I have some sort of insight as to what he could have and couldn't have done, and should and shouldn't have done.

Living win a MH illness doesn't mean you get a free pass to be selfish, it doesn't give me a free pass to put my pain on my own children. Yet my Dad did exactly that.

Mumof2 - I'm currently attempting to get MH help for my almost 16yo DD - children's services here stop at 16, adult services don't start till 18. I fully understand how SHIT MH services are, after years of dealing with them, and I know firsthand through my own issues how little NHS help there is, now that I can't afford to go private any more, but at the time I did, I had no choice but to go private because I needed to protect my DC's from feeling the same way I had.

I knew someone who engineered it so his teenage son would find him. His wife has never forgiven him for that. Father and son both had Asperger dx but I'm not well enough informed to understand the effect.

MrsDevere - I'm sorry if I am being insensitive, but it IS how I feel. And i am just as entitled to feel the way I do, a someone who has gone through the experiences I have gone through, as you and the other people on this thread are entitled to feel the way THEY do, due to the way THEY have experienced suicide.

Each person's experiences of suicide will be personal to them, and nobody is wrong for feeling the way they do about it.

All of which means that my feelings about suicide are just as valid as anybody else who has had to experience suicide's feelings are...

Trampstamp

My youngest son found his brother afterwards. He had been dead for several days by then.

Sam felt at the time and still feels that it was right for him to be the one who found him.

He has never expressed any opinion that it was selfish of James. He has never blamed his brother in any way. He grieves deeply and painfully for the loss of his brother but he has never said that James was selfish. He understands/understood his brothers illness made him do it.

He is terrified of mental illness as a result, but he knows that James didn't leave to hurt him, he knows that it was their bond that kept him alive for as long.

It is not selfish.

I can see that you are a far leSs selfish person than me, mumof2. You have been able to feel that James wasn't being selfish in committing suicide. Tbh, that makes you a better person than me, because despite being in therapy and having MH treatment on and off for the last 22 years, I doubt I will ever be able able to see what my Dad did as anything less than selfish. You are the better person, I'm more selfish than that, because I want him here next to me still, and would rather he was here still suffering from his MH issues than dead.

Couthy

Lucky you for being able to pay for any treatment. We couldn't afford that so James was left to deal with his illness with very little support.

We were his support and his safety net. We couldn't protect him and keep him safe with the little knowledge we had.

My son died as a result of an illness. He died because the treatments available failed him. He did not die because he was selfish.

I looked after my grandmother while she was being treated for terminal cancer. I can honestly say I wish she had turned down the treatment. It was painful and upsetting, and she still died very quickly. She felt she had to do it because to do otherwise would have been to give up. We found out later that the cancer was so aggressive, it was unlikely there was any point at all to the treatment and they're not expected her to take it - but I don't think she had understood that.

I would have felt selfish if I'd expected her to undergo more pain and suffering just so that I could watch her go through it.

I do think this is entirely different from suicide and the two should not be compared.

It doesn't make you a worse person and it doesn't make you selfish Couthy

It makes you still in a way the little girl who's Dad left her, the little girl who had already suffered abuse and went on to suffer more.

I do think that even though you are older that it must be very difficult to see it through anything other than those 10 year old eyes.

I love my son, I miss him with every breath in my body. I don't want my children to be in pain or unwell.

I'm not less selfish or better than you, just a mum who couldn't bear to think of my poor boy hurting in a way that I couldn't make better.

He is in a better place now, he isn't in pain and scared.

Do I want him back? Not if being here meant that he was ill. If he was here healthy and happy, of course I want him back. Wanting him back with his illness would be selfish of me.

couthy in the nicest possible way I think you should step back from the thread and give yourself some time and care.

Do you realise you have essentially just told a grieving mother that her teenage child was selfish for not wanting to go through any more aggressive and probably futile treatments in order to live perhaps a little longer in pain and suffering

I get that these are emotive topics and you are totally entitled to feel what you want. But other vulnerable people are reading your feelings.

I didn't ever say I didn't have selfish feelings on some things, Mrs Devere. I'm human. It's just my selfishness is apparent in situations where other people are less selfish than me. I accept that I have selfish parts of my personality.

I can see why people refuse cancer treatment - the effects if the treatment itself are devastatingly awful, and if it's not to cure, merely to prolong life, it's totally understandable.

But it's ALSO understandable that some people close to the person with cancer might feel that that is a selfish decision. And they are within their rights to have those feelings. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them people that have selfish feelings in certain circumstances.

They may not ever articulate those selfish feelings, because to do so would hurt the person deciding not to have any further treatment, but that doesn't make their feelings any less valid because they can be seen as selfish. They are still allowed to HAVE those feelings as long as they don't tell the person that it would hurt, a long as those selfish feelings don't actually EFFECT the person deciding not to have any more cancer treatment.

It's ok to have selfish feelings or thoughts, it's ACTING on them, like in suicide, IMO, when the effects will be felt by other people than the person having those selfish thoughts, that then becomes a selfish ACT IYSWIM.

How is wanting your pain to stop a selfish act?

How is wanting to stop the bullshit that your life has become wrong?

Couthy, you have no idea. You have no compassion.

No suicide isn't selfish,it's a desperate act borne of anxiety/fear/hopelessness
The ramifications of suicide for those left behind are huge,but that doesn't make the act selfish
But in fairness people make throw away comments about delays and passenger incidents without fully thinking of the impact,human scale

I was being entirely selfish when I laid out the pills in front of me, thinking of nothing else but ending my pain. Then I saw my DD's toybox. And that shocked me into realising that she would end up feeling exactly as I had spent my life feeling. So although I had had selfish THOUGHTS, I didn't turn that into a selfish ACT.

I accept that what I was about to do was totally selfish.i have had to accept that just as my dad did, I also have that as part of my personality. I have to fight hard not to act on that.

My Grandfather turned down aggressive treatment because the side effects would have blighted the three months he had been given for maybe two months more.

Was he selfish or cowardly? I think not. We all supported him. I loved him more than my own parents (who were dreadful), he died thirteen years ago and he was the bravest, most selfless loving person I have ever met.

Couthy

You are being very insensitive, have no empathy and are bordering on the offensive now.

Your lived experiences cannot be applied subjectively to everybody.

MrsDeVere

We have both lost our beautiful, brave children and live with that every single day.

Thank you for the flowers and the support.

we are all entitled to ^feel6 however we like.

What we are not 'entitled' to do is apply our own judgements to decide that everybody refusing cancer treatment or who are too unwell to even know they are unwell, is selfish.

I can see that I am upsetting people with my views in this, so I'm going to back out of the thread now.

I'm sorry if the way I feel upsets people.

I am usually quite a balanced person, but there are a few things I still have issues with, that I usually manage not to affect the advice I give on here, or the way I respond to issues. This is a subject that hits a nerve with me, and I've had to accept that I could be as selfish as my Dad was if I didn't fight it.

So I will bow out now, and I apologise again if my views have upset people.