*SENSITIVE* AIBU to think some people come across as ignorant nobs about suicide? *TRIGGERS*

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FB (sorry!) friend posted a status update complaining about being late home last night because someone threw themselves under their train. She and one of her FB friends (who I don't know) swapped several comments which included the phrases "selfish", "inconsiderate", "I would quite like to get home and enjoy my life thank you very much" etc.

I posted fairly mildly saying that it must have been frustrating but at least it was a minor inconvenience for her in the scheme of things and it was safe to say the other person, not to mention the driver, had had a far worse day. FB friend then claimed it was "light-hearted" and said they could post what they liked on their own news feed. I said that for some people, there is nothing "light-hearted" about suicide and they couldn't guarantee some of those people wouldn't be using social media; if they chose to post about a sensitive subject they could expect to get pulled up on it.

It wasn't long before I was accused (by FB friend's friend IYSWIM) of being "PC" (oh, how original) and of "attacking" my friend. I reiterated that this was an emotive subject and that maybe they should step back, re-read with an open mind and see that they weren't coming across as very empathic. And then I left it as it was starting to get to me.

AIBU to think that a woman in her 30s should have a bit more compassion about someone in the absolute depths of despair? Or am I being a sanctimonious old trout and "dictating" (that word was used too) what people can and can't say on their FB timeline?

I think if she'd said "sorry, I know I came across as a bit me me me - I was just letting off steam" it wouldn't have bothered me, but to use the word "light-hearted" as self-justification (there was nothing inherently humorous, OTT-for-effect or anything else to suggest light-heartedness about her OP - just a straight rant at have her evening plans disrupted) seemed totally inappropriate.

Oh frogslegs that's awful

However, my grandmother committed suicide in the very catholic country of Ireland, and she still had a full catholic mass and burial, so it must depend on the country/region.

Horatia I think your phrase Death by Mental Illness is so much more appropriate and sensitive.

My mum killed herself in front of a train, and her father had done the same thing when she was a teenager. She was a tremendously unselfish person who gave a great deal of herself (perhaps too much) to campaign for better services for those affected by mental illness. She left a very brief note indicating that she felt she was a burden and a cause of great pain, and she just wanted it to stop.

I have a great deal of sympathy (and gratitude for the compassion showed to us by them) for those involved in the aftermath of her death. This isn't reserved for the railway staff and British Transport Police, but for all the professionals involved in her care (CPN etc), who were all badly affected by her death.

Of course it is inconvenient when transport is delayed and I appreciate the consequences if these delays can sometimes be considerably more serious than missing something good on the TV. But - when someone has lost their life in such dreadfully sad circumstances, there is almost always going to be a huge and hidden back story. I find the off-the-cuff dismissal of those who kill themselves as selfish a very depressing indicator of levels of compassion in general.

YANBU

One of my fb friends must have been on the same train. She posted 'Stuck on a train at X trying to get home. Been here for 90 minutes because some poor person's thrown themselves under a train at Y'. Not actively blaming the person but still seems a bit unnecessary to say. Like seeking sympathy for yourself as some other people's lives fall apart completely.

I don't believe suicide is selfish but I see why people do. I used to. I had a friend at school whose Dad died when we were 13. Her Mum killed herself 10 months later leaving my friend and her 2 younger siblings without both parents. My friend was so angry with her Mum and I think everyone one her absorbed that intense pain and became convinced that her Mum was a 'selfish bitch' etc. It took a long time for me to lose that teenage viewpoint on suicide and I do wonder if some adults who view suicide in that way have had similar childhood or teenage experiences and then never got round to rethinking and changing their views.

From an adult perspective I can see that suicides come from either desperation or psychosis, neither or which are selfish. Either the person can't see a way out and thinks people will be better without them or they actually aren't in their right mind.

A friend of mine with bipolar once said that in a manic phase she literally wants to do whatever comes into her head. If the thought came to jump from the window ledge and fly she would try it. That death wouldn't be selfish. It wouldn't even really be suicide though I'm sure it would be labelled as such. It would be death due to psychotic illness.

When I was at my lowest ebb it took eight months to get an emergency psych referral. I was trying to get help - I was on SSRIs and attending counselling weekly. And my most successful attempt (IYSWIM) happened in the counselling building. I realise now that it would have been hugely messy for many people because of the method, but in that instant it was just as pp describes - like being skinned alive and searching desperately for a way to make it stop, and seizing on the first convincing idea I had.

People can be seeking help and not getting it - either because of waiting lists and underfunding, or problems with diagnosis and treatment not quite being right.

Or their illness might prevent their seeking help. We wouldn't blame someone with a broken leg for not climbing down the mountain to A&E.

OP YANBU, and I think it is brave of several of you to post your experiences

Incidentally I can't and won't take credit for the phrase "death by mental illness" which is so accurate as to be self-evident IMHO.

But I'm a bit disappointed that it isn't common currency on MN. For all our right-on credentials, Mumsnetters as a body are not well educated about mental health.

Dh has a cpn and a psychologist. He used to see them once a week. It's now once a month. It's not enough. Respite care was taken away last year, it was only two hours a week, but it made a difference to the pair of us.

Couthy

You don't seem to understand the nature of Psychosis. You were still capable of rational thought- many are not.

And many people with cancer do not seek out aggrressive treatments with poor outcomes that cause huge suffering.

Are you really implying they are selfish?

Get yourself some fucking empathy love.

James didn't even get to see a properly trained psych, he was seeing a GP who was doing a rotation as part of her training. Now, she was being supervised by a qualified psych but James never met him.

James felt that he wasn't even important enough to merit a 'proper doctor' When he was younger and under CAMHS, he saw a pysch who was amazing but as an adult, the funding wasn't there.

If the person suffering from MH feels under supported by the relevant agencies, how is that supposed to help them recover. James said that he felt as though they didn't believe him.

He actively REFUSED help, even when I as a 9yo WENT TO THE GP MYSELF to ask for him to be forced to get help.

Thankfully these days, the laws on section in exist exactly for that reason. Which I DID campaign about. As a CHILD.

MH services should be far better funded - IMO, if anyone wants to make donations, they should be made to their local MH dept. with a codicil that they must be spent on direct therapy for a patient, or staffing costs, and nothing else.

But while MH issues are still seen as slightly taboo, that will never happen. Unlike cancer services, which are headline grabbers, MH services will never make the same impact for donations.

Which does a disservice to those needing treatment.

But there is still treatment out there, you just have to fight to get it, or have so some to fight on your behalf. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

It still doesn't change my opinion that those who won't even seek help in the first place are being selfish, because they are transferring their pain and suffering to those they leave behind. That they have MH issues is a REASON for that selfishness, which makes it understandable, it can't change the inherent selfishness of that act. It can't change the inherent selfishness of those left behind who would have wanted that person alive despite their suffering.

Those that can say that they would rather the person close to them was free from suffering are just less selfish than I am!

Dawndonna, the cuts to MH-care provision - which I appreciate are only echoing the cuts elsewhere - are really starting to bite. Four years ago, my DH saw his psychiatrist fortnightly and his CPN monthly, but could make contact more frequently at crisis points. Last year (different NHS Trust) he saw his psychiatrist three times in total and his care coordinator four times in total, including at his discharge meeting when he was referred back to his GP because, in essence, he hadn't improved and there was nothing more they could do for him (guess the concept of a treatment-resistant disorder was somehow beyond them...). Quote: "we're not a counselling service". Thanks for that

I meant to add earlier, I am sorry that so many of you have had to go through first-hand experience of either the compulsion or the aftermath.

Yoni so it must depend on the country/region
That's what I thought as I'd never heard of anything similar before.

Iv not read this past the first couple of posts so far.

As a family who has a recent devastating suicide I don't want to comment on that side of things but, it is selfish beyond belief to commit suicide in this way!

They might have been ignorant in their posts but I actually agree with part of it, why should any of the rest of society (people who are on way home from work on a train, driver ect) be dragged in to someone's choice to end their life?

If you want to do it that's up to the individual but don't do it a massively public and devastating way to the rest of the world!

I won't go into details but I fully understand the mindset of being suicidal and may well have not been here if attempts hadn't failed on myself so I am not bashing people who want/need to end their life.

And what would have happened if you couldn't have afforded private treatment?

What would happen if you were on the waiting lists for referral to a CMHT?

What would happen if you had a psychotic illness whereby your ability to distinguish rational thoughts and beliefs was impaired or absent?

Read up on the massive increase in MH deaths in the East of England because of the complete destruction of local MH services?

I see them as unlawful deaths or a form of corporate manslaughter. If you don't treat people with cancer they die. If you don't treat people with serious MH problems, they die.

MrsMagnificent mumof2teenboys - you have kind of missed my point, understandably since it is an extremely emotive subject.

I do not suggest that the victims of suicide, left in the trail of destruction should not treasure and indeed love the memory itself of their loved one. No no no no no so no.

I refer to how wider society behaves, and not the victims of suicide themselves. It is horrendous to hear it, but at least it is people not taking part in, or actively going against the marketing/vindication of suicide. It may be for the best that people express earthy attitudes about it as a general rule in wider society, even taking the piss.

It is something that indicates someone needs treating, caring for, fixing, and if enacting it is seen in a less sympathetic way by society, that may be horrid but may also be to the good. It is in itself a moral evil the world could do without, which I think we can all agree without saying any such thing about the people who do it.

But Horatia, Mumof2's DS, and Dawndonna's DH ARE seeking treatment. That they aren't getting adequate treatment is a travesty, but they AREN'T being selfish, they ARE trying to do something.

That's not selfish, it's accepting they have an illness and getting help for it.

It would be selfish of me to refuse to seek help for my epilepsy and arthritis, despite hoe hard that would make life for my DC's and those around me. Which is why I pop 101 pills a day to keep things under a modicum of control, despite the frankly awful side effects on ME - not full control, but an improvement. If I DIDN'T do that, I'd be being selfish.

I deal with the side effects of my medication in order to not put that suffering on those around me - how is that different to someone with a MH illness? If they seek help for it, they aren't being selfish, if they don't, they are.

Good luck with fighting for better treatment when you are deeply psychotic.

Not everybody has YOUR resources or ability to 'fight'. Because they are too ill. You are fortunate that you never got so ill that you were unable to look after your needs and lucky you had some money to go private.

Most people with serious and enduring MI are out of work and cannot afford private care.

OP, and I'd add that using the phrase "PC" is indicative of someone with limited reasoning ability.

For me it's when people end it knowing there children will find them that in my view is so selfish

You clearly have NO clue about Psychosis. You cannot judge it by your own illness and behaviour.

Educate yourself.

be dragged in to someone's choice to end their life?
Because it's not about choices, Scrambled, and I strongly recommend you read the whole thing, you may want Mumsnet to delete that post later.

I need to qualify the first line - it should say "are or were". I apologise.

And I've had many family members with aggressive cancers. Not one has turned down treatment.

Many have died, despite the aggressive treatment - but they did that in order to spend as long as possible with their families.

I know my mother would turn down treatment, but it's the habit of a lifetime for her to not think about the effects of her actions on other people, so it will be expected if and when it happens. So due to her inherent selfishness, it would hardly be a surprise. And it IS likely, due to our family history - we all have the BRAC2 gene.

I don't have a 'lack of empathy', I have issues surrounding the suicide of my Dad...

Bingo, trampstamp.