To get wound up about MN and sleep advice

[LittleMilla]

I love MN and will often come on to get advice...can normally count on it for sensible pointers for everything except for sleep.

AIBU to wonder why noone on MN seems to want their children to sleep through the night? I no of noone in RL who co-sleeps - but everyone on MN seems to? And people seem to think it's entorely normal for a 8 month old baby to wake repeatedly through the night.

I just don't get it. So much valuable advice...yet everyone on here seems to go madly soft when it comes to sleep.

Am I the only one?

My DD slept through from 8 weeks 7-7. No going in for blankets, dummy replacement or anything else. Can count on one hand the times she has woken through the night and she's now 4. DS on the other hand has been less good. Still started sleeping through at 16 weeks, but is a bit more hit and miss in terms of the fact that we can go several months without any night waking and then maybe have a week or so where he wakes once per night, generally for a bottle. So I know it's dependent on the individual child and I have friends whose children really struggle with sleeping.

I agree to an extent though OP and it annoys me when posters on here suggest that anyone who says their baby sleeps through is lying or economical with the truth... They are all different.

Completely agree OP, yanbu.

The thing is you won't catch me or others like me on a sleep thread that often. In the past I've tried to post what I believe to be genuinely helpful advice only to be told I'm being unrealistic, despite the fact I have had very real success with numerous very real babies.

I've never co-slept because I have always been someone, who even with a newborn, sleeps like a log, DH has on occasion had to slap or shake me to wake me up so for our family it would have been dangerous.

I also would expect an 8month old baby to sleep through the night and would consider one that didn't to be a bad sleeper and in need of some attention in that area.

I actually think mn loves a bit of sleep martyrdom, and all this I didn't sleep properly for 3/5/7/15 years can get a bit competitive. People who feel they've been through hell, and that's what sleep deprivation is, probably find it hard to hear someone else had it worse. Also I think there can be an element of the 'being a good mother' by suffering for your child, similar to those who love going on about not having a night out since their child was born. I say let them crack on, I don't give a shit, I get 8 hours a night minimum.

Superworm said this earlier and I think it is spot on:

I think most parents want their child to sleep through. Some just don't. MN normalises that

It's not about not wanting babies to sleep through, it's about babies naturally and instinctively waking regularly for milk or a cuddle. How many times do you, as an adult, wake in the night for a sip of water, or a squeeze with the other half? It's normal for humans to do this, but for some reason it's become very normal to expect a baby (and toddler) to sleep 12 hours each night. Some parents' (not all) perceptions are skewed in western society IMO.

none of you have any useful information on what I should be doing, do you?

Except for leaving them to cry.

If my friends DD doesn't go to sleep and starts grizzling, my friends gets her back out of bed and brings her downstairs. She could try MANY other ways of dealing with this that would reinforce better sleeping.

Another friend has spent the last FIVE years spending upwards of 3 HOURS a night in her DDs room to 'help' her try to get to sleep. She seems to think the only alternative is for her to leave her crying.

And I have a number of friends who suddenly decided one day that 'enough was enough' and expected babies who have previously never been encouraged to self settle, to get themselves to sleep using CIO!

DS was in his own room at 4 months and his sleep improved drastically compared to being in a room with us where just one cough would wake him up.

We struggled on with dd2 until nearly 7 months because her room is at the other side of the house to ours. But once we moved her she went from waking regularly to sleeping through. We assumed it was our snoring/coughing/bed creaking that was disturbing her.

I have never known a baby over about 8 months who does not usually sleep through for 10 hours unless they are ill or teething. I had 2 dc and 9 dgc and this was so however I feel it is more luck than good management.

But a lot of it IS down to luck, not all of it but some of it. It really is and you don't seem to want to accept that but it is the case. Just like a lot of other things to do with children are down to 'luck'

Seriously though, this idea that people have that all children are the same and will all conform to the same norms of what we want from them is so wrong. Why can't we just accept that differnet children will struggle with different things and provide support rather than trying to make out that you are someone who doesn't struggle with that is somehow 'superior' as a parent?

I am lucky that DS eats well, but I would never attempt to make out that meant that other parents who struggle to get their child to eat have done something wrong, or aren't trying enough or any of the other things which have suggested/implied by posters on this thread with regards to sleeping.

It is good to here peoples different experiences, and different peoples approaches can help parents consider new things which may help with whatever struggle they have. Hearing other parents are in the same boat also helps massively but some of the comments on here would simply make a parent feel rubbish and is that what we really want?

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread. But in reponse to OP.

I would Love my 15mo (yes read that 15 mo) to sleep through. But he does not. It is not because I do not want him to or because I have not tried (ha ha ha you have no idea) but HE does not sleep through.

I don't know of your DC is your PFB but not all children are the same and not all solutions are the same. Why be so judgy? Also I have some news for you that I learnt early on from MN as a new parent your friends will be not telling you the truth. I know this because all my friends believe that my DS sleeps through "unless he has a cold/teething".

Please don't suggest that other people are making poor choices when it comes to trying to get their children to sleep. You do not know. If you don't like advice you have been given on MN ignore it and move on to the advice you agree with (which seems pointless to me).

Good luck with your DC sleep though as one thing we can all be united in is that sleep deprivation sucks.

Look some babies just don,t sleep through.....I am knackered but I accept it. I do not want to CIO. But if I was going insane with sleep deprivation maybe I would have to out my beds above the bay so I did not go under but till that point I put up with two night wakings because I do not want my child distressed when I can ease that distress. I guess that is my parenting philosophy. My child' s needs are more important than mine within reason, because my child cannot address their needs but is relying on me until she is older. I think cribs are a weird concept but I realise that is just because of what I have done. I worked with an anthropologist once and suffice to say the babies I encountered never cried in the night as they were co sleeping. That made such an impression on me that when I had my own I tried it and I do not know how anyone rests easy with a small baby in a crib. I realise this is because I am so at ease with co sleeping. Many babies take a long time to sleep more than 5 or 6 hours. I take that as a norm.

I would have to put my needs above my baby.s needs I meant!

HumphreyCobbler, I would live to give you some advice, but unfortunately, as this thread shows, it's really difficult to do without knowing you and your baby. What finally worked for me was starting a feeding routine during the day so that I was sure she was feeding well then. I then gradually cut down night feeds (you don't have to leave him/her to cry, but use other ways of settling). It worked for me, but obviously won't for everyone. Feeding on demand was not healthy for me and my dd but I know most people swear by it.

Humphrey - I'm not sure if u actually want advice or are trying to prove a point but dd is a reflux baby and we are really getting there with her sleep.

I have found that immediately responding when she wakes and feeding if it has been a while since last feed usually settles her back down. I know the advice is not to feed to sleep, but it seems to work. If too soon since last feed I start by trying shh shh pat, stroking her head or tummy and trying to soothe her like that. If that fails I pick her up and pat her bum until she goes to sleep before putting her back down. No talking, no eye contact. Repeat ad nauseum!

If she gets in a pickle and cries every time I put her down, I do a reset. I get up with her, play, change her bum and ten start bedtime again.

Gradually she has stretched out the time between wakings, no cc or anything.

Hmm, see I think "unless ill or teething" is a little disingenuous if you're talking about an 8 month old. Both my dss cut their first tooth at 4 months. By 1 year they both had at least 8 teeth. Factor in winter colds and they spent the greater part of their first year either ill or teething. Ds2 is still a rubbish 10mo sleeper though.

The fact is, sleep threads are far more likely to be read by parents whose babies aren't sleeping well. I was an avid follower when dd was younger but rarely bother now as touches wood she seems very settled.

It also seems that in RL, parents like to lie boast about how 'good' their babies are, but on MN we're more at ease about sharing our woes. If that makes sense...

But I am not claiming to be a superior parent. And I don't go on sleep threads for the very reason that I don't want to be called that.

My kids eat well too. So I tend to stay away from the picky eaters threads too.

Honestly, what I did was I watched my aunts and uncles have babies (I was oldest of my generation, and there's 10 years between me and the oldest of my cousins) and I saw all the things they did, and the consequences of those things, and when I had my babies I made a conscious effort that if my babies were NT they were not going to need their back rubbed for 3 hours every single night to get them to sleep. And they were not going to poke their dinner round their plate for an hour and then be given crisps. And they were not going to get to the age of 6 with no respect for other people.

Its not been easy. It might make me sound like a knob. It might make me sound super strict.

I am none of those things. I rarely tell anyone that, and I don't judge other people for doing it differently. I just resent being called LUCKY.

Pleased that I'm not the only one.

I have two boys - one is 7.5 mo and the other will be 3 in May. Their sleep is a precious commodity that requires continuous work. Ds2 first slept through at 8 weeks but has been ill/teething since. He's now sleeping through again but it hasn't been easy.

I just cannot understand why there are so few pointers. DH often asks me to ask MN (as we usually do for everything behaviour etc related) but I said the other day there's no point.

I made the conscious choice to co-sleep from Birth.

I am from Native American background and it is normal to do this, that is how I was influenced by the women in my family who I listened to and observed growing up.

I couldn't sleep unless my babies were next to me.

The same with BF for up to two years old.

I couldn't be bothered "justifying" this, to others, so I lied.

But so do others, I can remember overhearing two Mums, one from over the road and one living at the back of me, talking about how "good" their baby's were. Both used to wake me more than my own ever did. They both used the CIO method, which seemed to go on for weeks.

I now have the confidence to "admit" to co-sleeping. When I have my Nephew overnight, I co-slept with him, as his Mum does. We know how to co-sleep safely and the HV, or anyone else has been told this clearly.

I don't care what anyone else does, as long as it isn't abusive.

YANBU! I cannot bear the competitive martyrdom on the subject. Sleep and "How I suffered to breastfeed" always seems to bring out tons of posters trying to outdo each other in a bizarre mix of misery and smugness.

SS3J, thanks for responding

I make sure I feed regularly through the day, my other children did too, but it still didn't make them sleep through at eight months!

I was trying to make the point that all of us who have reluctant sleepers DO do stuff to try and help, that the OP is false in her premise that we just give up in the face of sleeplessness.

Great post mama pain.
It appears on MN as if noones child sleeps through, because for all of us whose children do, if we post on any sleep thread we are immediately flamed for being 'smug' or 'lucky'. So, noone posts, except posters whose kids also don't sleep. And then it appears as if no child ever sleeps thru.

Humphrey, I read back through your posts but I couldn't see certain things.

How old is your baby?
What is her current sleep pattern?
Where/How does she sleep?
Does she nap during the day?
What is the bedtime routine?
When do you feed her during the day and run up to bedtime?

DC3 had terrible reflux and I really had to put the hours in to achieve good sleep.

Sirzy I am trying to say pretty much the same things as you but you are probably expressing it better I have had wine I apologise for the manners analogy but it was the first one that came into my head.

Yes luck is always involved - to some extent - but surely parents can have an influence to some degree in any aspect of parenting. It is the MN view that any good sleeper is down to luck alone and nothing the parent can do will have any effect whatsoever that drives me doo la lally bonkers.

My 8 mo Co sleeper slept just fine. At 21mo in her own room? Not so well....She's had different patterns at different times. And her brother was different again. I don't understand people who think they have sleep sorted when every child is different!

I haven't said that you are lucky they sleep i said a LOT of it is down to luck and that is what you seem to be missing. Great that those choices you made and worked hard for worked for you and your family but that doesn't mean the same will work for other families. it also doesn't mean if you had another child the same will work again. Everyone is different.