To get wound up about MN and sleep advice

[LittleMilla]

I love MN and will often come on to get advice...can normally count on it for sensible pointers for everything except for sleep.

AIBU to wonder why noone on MN seems to want their children to sleep through the night? I no of noone in RL who co-sleeps - but everyone on MN seems to? And people seem to think it's entorely normal for a 8 month old baby to wake repeatedly through the night.

I just don't get it. So much valuable advice...yet everyone on here seems to go madly soft when it comes to sleep.

Am I the only one?

rallytog1 I completely agree. Glad things are getting better for you now.

My DS has never been a great sleeper but things have improved with quite a lot of effort put in. Saying that though it tends to go in waves. We'll get a couple of great weeks where he sleeps through then it all goes tits up again - the screaming 2 hours after putting him down for example is the new one.

BTW would still like to hear any tips... maybe this is just proving OP's original post

But BeeInYourBonnet if you posted that you had an active child who insisted that they were hungry between meals even though they didn't always clear their plate at mealtimes and that their demands for snacks was driving you crazy, you would have some posters who would give advice on how they got their children to be content with the meals a day and others who would point out that it actually perfectly biologically appropriate for toddlers to need several small meals rather than three larger meals.

The same is true for baby sleep. My children didn't sleep until they were toddlers and sometimes it was hard and I was very very tired but that seemed better than the alternatives. It is perfectly normal and developmentally appropriate for babies to wake up a lot at night.

Moomins oh no!! You've had it for 6 months??!! You have my sympathies.

DS usually goes back to sleep happily with a bit of a cuddle or a back rub - just no idea why he is waking up in the first place.

We do 5-10 mins on the boob and then hes back off. Anything else just means hes awake for longer then he ends up waking the 2 year old.

On a happy note for those with poor sleepers, my 2 year old was the worse. Hed sleep 3-4 hours then be up every hour and sometimes be awake for 3-4 hours in the night. No amount of sleep training worked until he was around 23 months. He dropped his day time nap at 2.2 months and started sleeping between 12-14 hours a night. The only time he wakes up and we have to go into him now is when the baby disturbs him. He sometimes wakes up and chats to himself but doesnt call out for us.

That should be the 2 year old was my worse sleeper.

Slightly, I assume you're gone but - what do you think is the deal breaker, then?

The OP asked if she was BU. Some thought she was, some thought she wasn't. If she didn't want opinions, why did she post?

THis is the most mumsnet thread ever. Mumsnet is not like real life. In my real life most women go back to work and actually like their sleep and their sanity.
I can honestly say I have only ever met one person who co-slept, and I live in quite a poncey part of London known for its 'modern parent' types.

She also breastfed her son til he was 4. He is now 7. Seven, and has not yet once slept through the night. Still co-sleeps for the record.

I feel sorry for people whose babies don't sleep through but I think some people, SOME people, need to get hardcore on their kids.

I was of the 6 months and she's in her own room, CC if necessary brigade. Happily dd slept through from then and we never looked back.
But I don't think any baby needs eg feeding in the night after 6 months, so imo if you put the proper sleep training time in, it's worth it. Of course training doesn't work on literally every kid in the world, but for me it was imperative to at least try, for my own sanity if nothing else.

I totally agree with this being a real Mumsnet thread but for very different reasons.

Research: babies who are fed normally, i.e. Bf babies are expected to wake up to be fed in the night time in their early years.

Mumsnet: my baby didn't wake up so it is not normal for babies to wake up. I have spoken to my sister and friends so it is conclusively not normal for babies to wake up. Mums who have 'abnormal' babies who wake up are not as good as me at being parents as I am because they don't know how to try hard enough.

Yep definitely a Mumsnet thing.

I might read the whole thread at some point but I'm 2 pages on and there are a couple of posters who I'd happily bitchslap right now. My DD wakes 1-3 times a night. She's 6.5 months old. She has a routine at bed time and will stir and self settle numerous times. I don't 'rush in' at the slightest squeak. She wakes and is hungry/ thirsty. Sometimes she can go 8 hours and so wakes once. Sometimes it's 5 hours.

The suggestion that I'm not trying as hard as someone whose baby does sleep through, quite frankly, is so utterly ridiculous it's untrue.

I could ask why your sleep is more important than your babies needs. But I won't.

I could ask if you're left cold/hungry/thirsty/in pain/scared in the middle of the night cos that's 'good for you'. But I won't.

Instead I'll go back to loving my baby my way and recognising that parenting is a 24hr a day job. I won't judge you for having a baby that sleeps. Please don't be such judgemental of those of us who don't. Whatever the reason.

Ds has physical developmental issues that have caused a long sequence of challenges for us. He doesn't sleep well. Despite the fact that to anyone who doesn't know, it now looks like we "just" have a poor sleeper, any smug prat who thinks they are a better parent than me is welcome to come and stay.

I would like to apologise for that post^. I didn't mean to be so rude.

Luis. You were not rude. You were honest

Pudding, one might suggest that you are trying hard - you are trying to meet your baby's needs.

Well said Pudding.

OP, your post made me feel really shit about myself so thanks for that.
I would love my baby to sleep through. She just fucking doesn't alright? Jesus.

To pp. It is possible to go back to work and have a baby who wakes in the night you know? Although I realise there are certain jobs where this might be more difficult than others. I wouldn't fancy conducting serious brain surgery on my sleep record.

yanbu at all!!

I think this all the time

If you dare mention cc or God forbid putting a baby to bed in a cot you are almost immediately pelted with rotten mn eggs

Thanks soup

Those of you congratulating yourselves on having sleepers: bully for you, but it's more likely to be just luck. Those of you whose babies don't sleep through (like mine)- it's not your fault and don't let smug judgemental types like the OP and many others on this thread make you think otherwise.

It is completely normal for 8 month old to wake during the night. If you think it isn't, you're wrong. It's that simple, Gina Ford.

What's the point in trying to make people feel bad about themselves? There isn't a fucking set of rules which make a baby sleep if you're not 'too soft' to follow them. That's ridiculous. All babies are different.

I think it is possible to help babies sleep better but it requires consistency and probably some crying (yours and babies) however a lot of mnetters will not consider any form of cc or sleep arrangements other than co-sleeping.

I don't consider myself smug, my dd wasn't a great sleeper by any stretch but I believe things like routine, self settling and putting her to bed in her own bed helped. This is what I will advise to other mntters who are struggling as this is what helped me

I just think that actually it's NOT a natural thing to expect a baby to sleep through. Perhaps it is desirable - but I think that most of the sources outside of MN seem to push that it is desirable, that it is THE way to get sleep, that having babies who wake in the night is an awful, stressful thing. That parents who don't sleep train are creating a monster. And while of course it can be stressful and difficult to have a baby who needs you in the night, I just don't see that forcing something unnatural is the only or, indeed, the best solution. And I really despise all of the scaremongering of "Oh he'll be in your bed when he's 12!" No - it's perfectly possible to do what works now and change it when it no longer works for you (just don't expect immediate results, as with anything).

I reckon if you understand that it's not natural for babies to sleep through, but you would rather eliminate the night wakings using techniques such as sleep training than manage them in a different way, then fair enough but please understand that there are some of us who don't want to do this, who are happy to manage night wakings in a different way, and that there's also nothing wrong with that.

I do think there should be advice on all options but with the clinch being that NOTHING works for ALL families and instead of the focus being "make your child sleep through ASAP whatever it takes" "make night wakings as unobtrusive as possible for everyone". Which of course might mean eliminating them. But I don't think it's the easiest or the best path, for a lot of people.

DS1 didn't sleep through until a year apart from a brief teaser just before the four month growth spurt. DS2 is 10m and still waking for a feed. I've found it much easier this time as I accept that there isn't a golden rule that he must sleep through after 6 months and coping with reduced sleep is much easier without a feeling of being socially wrong. One feed nights are perfectly tolerable. He wakes, I feed for 40 mins or so, he dozes off and it's fairly civilised. Between two babies and two rounds of pregnancy insomnia I've got used to the sleep I get and it's at the better end of the scale. It'll take me alot longer to relearn to sleep through than it will take for him. It could be much worse (and was with DS1 although allergies are suspected of interfering in that department)

a quarter of babies have not slept regularly between 10 and 6 by 12 months so while "most" babies may well be sleeping through by 8 months, there are certainly lots and lots and lots who are not.

DS1 was one of those who just didn't sleep (still doesn't, but aged 4 he will stay in bed til his clock goes green - at 6am - about 90 mins after he wakes up). DS2, with a very similar routine, was sleeping through by 7 months ish.

DS1, we tried practically everything - CIO was the only thing I refused. CC took a lot of persuasion by DH. I stuck it for 3 fucking weeks. That was 3 weeks of him scramming between 1am and 3 am constantly. Without CC, he would babble in his cot in the dark if I was in the room (dozing in the chair, so long as my fingers were through the cot bars). DH slept through most of the screaming.

To those of you who are struggling with sleep atm, it WILL get better. Ignore those who tell you your doing something wrong. Unless your going in, putting all the lights on and getting them dressed at 2am, before telling them its time to go back to sleep, I'm sure your trying your best.

To those of you who, through luck of skill, have had sleepers, please don't underestimate the emotions in those of us who "aren't trying hard enough to get our babies to sleep" when DS1 was 18 months, you'd have had me in tears re sleep.

through luck OR skill.

And it's not usually laziness that stops people from sleep training. I was very sleep deprived for several years but didn't sleep train my children. The reason wasn't that I was to lazy to bother or that I led a chaotic life and didn't want the routine. Actually, I am pretty keen on calm bedtime (and mealtime and after school etc.) routines.

But leaving my babies to cry felt utterly wrong, instinctively and morally. I have spoken to friends who sleep trained their babies successfully and they don't seem to have felt this way. They talk about the grizzling and angry cries, but my children called me back with the sort of distressed cry that filled me with the adrenaline I would need to smash windows and break down doors to rescue and comfort them. I am not prepared to ignore that sort of cry of need for the sake of my own comfort.

When other parents day that they aren't prepared to let their babies cry, I assume that they experience a similar level of distress.

I can ignore a toddler tantrum without trouble but a baby in distress is a while different thing.