to beg women with lazy sexist arsehole DHs not to have more DCs with them

[BeeInYourBonnet]

Apologies as I'm sure this must have been done before, but some of the threads recently have been SO depressing. I've been on MN 8 years, and it never ceases to amaze me what total fucking arseholes some women are married to. These manchilds are pathetic.

I want to cry when I read that some poor woman is pg with no 3, 4 or 5, and admits that her DH has never helped with a single night wake-up, has hardly changed a nappy, provides no support emotionally or practically, is financially abusive, the list goes on....

I know its more complicated than this, but I just want to scream 'stop having DCs with these complete bastards' 'stop showing them that's its OK to check out of family life'

I agree with dreamingbohemian's analysis of schools as vectors for the transmission of values.

However, am I the only one who really doesn't quite trust schools to roll out a great programme of anti-sexist teaching?

The majority of people in this country aren't fabulous at delivering an anti-sexist message; anti-sexism - its outlines; contents; necessity - is still disputed; there is no reputable body delivering training in an accepted body of anti-sexist thought: where would these teachers of anti-sexism come?

Having said that, though, I'm inclined to think that simply beginning to think that this sort of thing ought to be part of a normal curriculum, in a normal school, in the C21 in the UK is a good thing.

What a ridiculous, ranty, childish post Nom.

How do you know we have 'nice, conventional lives'?

Are we one homeogenous group?

How do you know we are all middle class? Not that class has fuck all to do with it in most cases.

It's far more 'patronising' to assume women don't have the choice or strength or guts or heart or brains (no matter what class!!) to leave these men or decide not to have more children with fuckwits.

*Are you joking? School is the biggest vector for socialisation out there. It's how we all end up being good little capitalists and consumers, etc and so on.

I guess it's okay to teach those kinds of morals, how to be a good worker and contributor to the economy, but not the kind of morals that will keep women out of misery.*

No of course it isn't okay to teach those kinds of morals. I think essentially education should be academic and develop enquiry. Anything else is veering on to shakey ground i think. I am not unsympathetic to the argument tho. I am just conceptually uneasy with it.

It was more in response to the idea that some of the peers would argue with those in the group with different opinions. And sadly in my experience you do not get any voices of dissent.

But that's just your experience MrsKoala

If this was worked into the national curriculum, it would go country wide.

I know the kids in both my DS's schools have some very lively 2 sided debates about many things.

Have to admit, I am agreeing with posters who are pointing out that a lot of this thread betrays an implicitly woman-blaming attitude.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: behind every abusive man is a sexist and woman-hating society and peer-group who help keep him in a position of power.

Sadly, I think this thread shows how deep this runs.

at the MC post feminists

I do think that what someone else said upthread was a very good point though- in some ways, girls who have had good examples of equality with their own parents are often quite vulnerable as they don't have a clue what's happening or how to deal with it when they experience the opposite

My parents are lovely, and have a brilliant marriage and the lines of communication were always open between us- but they never explained/warned me of any of the stuff my ex did to me. My mum in particular feels desperately guilty about that now, but I honestly don't think they ever realised the need, because it was so far from their own experience of marriage. It wasn't their fault- they are both clever, loving people who wanted the best for me, but there was a lot they simply weren't aware of, and the information I needed wasn't coming from anywhere else. I lost most of my teens and my early 20's to this sort of r/ship- I was completely clueless.

NomNom you talk some shit. Have you read the thread properly? Obviously not.

People can surprise you and may have hidden secrets but there are plenty of bogstandard horrible blokes who don't bother hiding the fact that they are sexist bores. Or maybe that's just round my way!

"Why shouldn't others in crappy relationships have all the children they want and get rid of the lazy H once they're done? "

yy to this. Why should a woman be penalised twice - once by having a shit relationship, and then by being disbarred from the joy of having children?

MrsK - there is no such thing as ideological neutrality. To pretend there is (wittingly or unwittingly) is to support the status quo

thecatfromjapan - if only there was a Public Feminism Board who could bring it into schools! It would of course be weakened to the Equalist [sic] Board so as not to offend anyone, and would deliver anodyne assemblies on how "girls" will "earn less as they have children, which is fair"

dusk but unfortunately so many women are easily blinded by "my bitch of an exwife won't let me pay child support and see my kids" etc

I am amazed that we accept that of men where as a woman who didn't see her kids would be expected to fight for them. I sure as hell would do anything if dh tried to take my kids away from me. legal or not

I assume most people who seem to be on such a high horse on this thread have nice conventional lives because of the attitudes conveyed here. I think I've come across 2 posts by women saying 'yes, I was in this situation and it felt like xyz'. The rest seems to be people who are far removed from the restrictive circumstances they are accusing women of perpetuating.

Of course women could have the guts and intelligence to notice what's going on and leave. Unfortunately, there are structures and attitudes in place, as well as real everyday intimidation and manipulation, that makes them stuck. Not their fault. It's society's fault, their partner's, their family of origin's fault. And by society I also mean people who portray women in this kind of situation as inferior and generally 'other'.

You know what inhabitants of 'deprived areas' call deprived areas? Home. Doesn't mean all of them like living in such areas, but looking down on people won't help them.

@ Duskandshiver

Yes of course it's just my experience and the fact it is remarkable is because it is not the norm. I would also like to point out i didn't mean to imply WC people are all like this. I am WC and i am not (altho i read the guardian and MC sensibilities - so i suppose i am arriviste ). The areas i worked are very very deprived. Really poorest end of the spectrum, and yes i think sadly it has clouded my views. I do think healthy debate between teenagers is imperative about these subjects. And on a national level yes i can see it would do good. It would very much have to be in the form of healthy challenge and enquiry rather than 'this is right and wrong' so on reflection it would be more the way it was delivered, rather than me thinking it shouldn't be delivered. Perhaps i'm too precious about moralising and instilling social control - but that's just my Marxist chip rearing it's ugly head again ;)

Mrskoala, I suppose it must depend on the area you're teaching in. My experiences in schools were very different - I always had students who enjoyed discussions & there were always dissenting voices.

FWIW I taught in three different schools before being a SAHM for a while, & now just do a bit of part-time teaching. One school was pretty MC, in an affluent market town. One catered predominantly for a large council estate & there was a fairly high proportion of students on free school meals. The last was genuinely very mixed in terms of socio-economic background & academic attainment.

I agree with worra that some wider form of relationship education should be a required part of PSE / PSHE, though I suspect it doesn't have a very high priority for Gove.

thecatfromjapan I really don't agree. We can sit around and wait for abusers to stop abusing til the cows come home, but meanwhile there are women & girls who need help right now.That isn't women blaming, that's common sense.

I was in an abusive relationship, and if I had had the knowledge to know what an abusive relationship was in the first place, then I would have been able to leave that r/ship a lot sooner. However I didn't, and I lost most of my youth, and I am still dealing with the fallout years later.

I'm failing to see what is paternilistic about educating children about red flags and explaining about abuse, how it happens and is enabled. And unless you think women being treated with respect is some kind of optional moral, I don't understand the argument against teaching it in schools. Children don't just learn morals from their parents. They learn it from society and school is a massive part of their society. At the moment schools allow sexual harassment of girls to continue at horrific levels. They are part of the enabling cycle.

However, I think that people are asking the wrong question. Not why don't women leave, but why do men do this? Or even better why don't abusive men leave (or aren't made to leave)?

sorry, I don't agree that the thread is woman blaming: I do agree that it would be bloody hard to get this sort of thing taught in schools.

Still think it's worth a try though, and if schools won't do it, MN can

That's interesting MrsKoala how we can have such different experiences/opinions on this.

I live in one of the most deprived boroughs in London and yet many teens are still living in households where equality is the norm.

Of course many others are absolutely not but I still see a bit of a mix that I think would spark a decent enough debate.

'Or even better why don't abusive men leave '

Why should they, scallops? The odds are ever in their favour, they have what they want and so what in the world will make them choose to disadvantage themselves? That requires altruism, empathy and a willingness to prioritise equality. All of which are virtues abusive men lack.
How can you 'make them leave' if no one challenges that behaviour, and if it requires evidence and proof of abuse that is not available?

Karma, perhaps schools should enforce 1 hour of Mumsnetting a day for all pupils?

Or perhaps not, as bum sex isn't really a subject for the faint hearted...

"I do agree that it would be bloody hard to get this sort of thing taught in schools." But why should that be the case? Other things that are right/wrong are taught in schools. Why is this not taught?

Ok, I suggested an MN campaign upthread and don't really see what is paternalistic or women-blaming about the simple idea of setting out what constitutes abusive behaviour in a relationship (working title of campaign 'A Spa Is Not An Adequate Substitute For Emotional Support'.)

I'm not saying that an equal relationship is defined by doing an exactly equal number of nappy changes. It's about both partners enjoying an equal standard of living. I don't think that has to be solely the province of MC feminists - it should be accessible to all.

There was a time when people didn't want sex education taught in schools

Thank goodness that was over ruled.

It should be as easy to discuss as racism, but it isn't.
I don't know why human rights is so easy to discuss in the abstract and so inflammatory when it comes to RL experiences and expectations.

I think men do this for a whole host of reasons,for instance, because they feel inferior and threatened by women.

Looking back, my ex was punching well above his weight. As a teen, I was intelligent, articulate, quirky, pretty, with a strong circle of friends, both male and female, loving family, and hobbies and interests that I adored.

My ex on the other hand, was interested in nothing except computer games, had one friend, and was a below average student. His family was also very dysfunctional.

He couldn't stand how I was in relation to what he was, and over a period of years he stripped down my self confidence until I was an empty, dead satellite, revolving around the great ego that was Him. All without raising his hand to me.