AIBU to carry on evangalising about electronic cigarettes? (Part 3).

[magimedi]

This is now our third thread.

Thread 2 is here - with lots of useful information:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1912752-AIBU-to-STILL-feel-positively-evangelical-about-electronic-cigarettes-thread-2?pg=1

Many thanks, Plenty. Feeling so bloody chuffed about giving up the fags. Havent had a single craving and feelmsick at the smell of them. Marvellous, after 22 yrs as a smoker.

Oh gods just seen the latest (amended yet again) version that was put out just Thursday (20/02). As far as I can see, paragraphs 15 and 16 seem to ban any non-tobacco flavours!

Paragraph 15. The likelihood of diverging regulation is further increased by concerns over tobacco products having a characterising flavour other than one of tobacco, which could facilitate initiation of tobacco consumption or affect consumption patterns.
Measures introducing unjustified differences of treatment between different types of flavoured cigarettes should be avoided. However, products with characterising flavour with a higher sales volume should be phased out over an extended time period to allow consumers adequate time to switch to other products.

Paragraph 16. The prohibition of tobacco products with characterising flavours does not preclude the use of individual additives outright, but it does oblige manufacturers to reduce the additive or the combination of additives to such an extent that the additives no longer result in a characterising flavour. The use of additives necessary for the manufacture of tobacco products, for example sugar to replace sugar that is lost during the curing process, should be allowed, as long as theyit do not result in a characterising flavour

Shit allergic, where did you find that?

Are you sure they're not talking about cigarettes here? I know they plan to phase out menthol fags.

that's terrible!

Here

This is in a section about "tobacco products" and doesn't specify that these paragraphs are specifically referring to cigarettes.

Paragraph 32 states "In order to ensure a level playing field, novel tobacco products, that are tobacco products as defined in this Directive, should comply with the requirements of this Directive." with 32a stating "Electronic cigarettes and refill containers should be regulated by this Directive, unless they are - due to their presentation or function - subject to Directive 2001/83/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council1 or to Council Directive 93/42/EEC2." with 32b) reinforcing this with "Member States should ensure that electronic cigarettes and refill containers comply with the requirements of this Directive."

It DOES go on to say in Paragraph 32l "For example, the responsibility for adopting rules on flavours remains with the Member States. It could be useful for Member States to consider allowing the placing on the market of flavoured products . In doing so, they should be mindful of the potential attractiveness of such products for young people and non
smokers. Any prohibition of such flavoured products would need to be justified and notification thereof submitted in accordance with Directive 98/34/EC." This basically means that if our nanny state government (of whichever particular type happens to be in at the time) want to clamp down on flavours, they can.

I'm only up to page 27 of this 111 page document so far but already I've noticed a large number of basic errors that should never be allowed in any published document, not even a draft e.g. sentences not finishing properly, words run together, inconsistencies, spelling mistakes etc. The document is definitely not in anything like a finished state, and has been updated only 3 days ago, yet members are expected to vote on it any day now! I would never let anything in this state leave any office I had any responsibility for, and I don't work in the legal profession

I will plough on with reading it over the next day or so and pull out any more bits that are or contradict themselves (already found MANY contradictions). Interestingly, so far not found anything that talks about NON-tobacco based (i.e. manufactured) nicotine.....

Definitions section, no 4 (page 35) "'characterising flavour' means a clearly noticeable smell or taste other than one of tobacco, resulting from an additive or a combination of additives, including, but not limited to, fruit, spice, herbs, alcohol, candy, menthol or vanilla, which is noticeable before or during the consumption of the tobacco product;"

Definition 13 "'flavouring' means an additive that imparts smell and/or taste;"

Article 12.1 c (on labelling) states "The labelling of unit packets and any outside packaging and the tobacco product itself shall not include any element or feature that:
refers to taste, smell, any flavourings or other additives or the absence
thereof;"

Annie - I only like tobacco flavour & my favourite is The Sherlock :

www.ecigwizard.com/e-liquid/wizmix/the-sherlock.html

Plenty - I tried the Diamond Ice tobacco flavours you so kindly sent me, and am afraid to say I didn't like them. Like many of the tobacco flavoursthey had a hint of compost heap in the taste!! Well, that's the best way to describe it! I have passed them on to my lovely postie who is a real star re parcels etc & who is another vaper. He promises to let me know!

Maybe now vapenominations for places has been won we should have anew one for who you have vaped with. So I'll start with the postie!

And huge congratulations to every one who has quit with vapers!

I hardly ever see anyone but I will cheer from the sidelines for the new vapenominations!

Have just bought a load of cocomel. I only have a 5ml sampler and am going right off chocolate as my taste and smell improves. I never dreamt I would like it but that seems to be the way. It's always the ones you least suspect.

I can't see how they can ban flavours though? Just buy unflavoured liquid and add your own flavours? 99% of ecig flavours are food flavourings? It's the 20mg limit on liquid I'm more worried about, that will be a disaster for diy mixers

Oh gawd it's clear as mud, isn't it?

That doc is a list of amendments though, not the whole tpd text, so the paragraphs might make more sense in context (although probably not )

This is on page 26 and suggests flavours will be ok:

(32l) This Directive does not harmonise all aspects of electronic cigarettes or refill containers. For example, the responsibility for adopting rules on flavours remains with the Member States. It could be useful for Member States to consider allowing the placing on the market of flavoured products . In doing so, they should be mindful of the potential attractiveness of such products for young people and non smokers. Any prohibition of such flavoured products would need to be justified and notification thereof submitted in accordance with Directive 98/34/EC.

Yes it's the 20mg limit that's the biggest problem, not only for DIYers but also for the estimated 20% of vapers who need over 20mg to stay off the fags.

It looks like there's been an amendment on the size of refill containers (previously it said maximum size of 10ml). This is on page 22 of the amendments:

(32c) Nicotine containing liquid should only be allowed to be placed on the market under this Directive, where the nicotine concentration does not exceed 20 mg/ml. This concentration allows for a delivery of nicotine that is comparable to the permitted dose of nicotine derived from a standard cigarette during the time needed to smoke such a cigarette . In order to limit the risks associated with nicotine, maximum sizes for refill containers, tanks and cartridges should be set. (my bold)

This is interesting, it's a letter to the EU from lots of scientists whose studies have been misquoted or misinterpreted in drawing up this dog's dinner.

From the letter:

1. TPD’s Comparison of Nicotine Delivery From Tobacco and Electronic Cigarettes

TPD Text: Recital c) for Article 18 states: “Nicotine containing liquid should only be allowed under this Directive where the nicotine concentration does not exceed 20 mg/ml. This level of concentration is similar to the dose of nicotine derived from a standard cigarette during the same duration of smoking.”

The science: The Commission quotes (1) Dr. Farsalinos’ papers (2,3) to justify the claim that 20mg/ml of nicotine matches the average cigarette delivery. Dr. Farsalinos has written to the Commission stating that they have misinterpreted his findings. His research instead shows that 20 mg/ml e-liquid provides less than one-third of the nicotine delivered by one tobacco cigarette (4,5). 50mg/ml is needed to roughly match a tobacco cigarette. All other existing studies confirm this (6-9). Some 20 to 30% of electronic cigarette users use liquids above 20mg (8,10). Higher nicotine content liquids are typically used by the most dependent smokers, who have the highest risk of smoking-related damage, and who benefit most from switching to electronic cigarettes. Most such heavy smokers need more than 20mg/ml to switch from smoking to vaping.

magi, I don't blame you for not liking the liquid I sent, I didn't like it either. Pleased to hear it found a home I have several other foul 'tobacco' flavours I can send you, some are even nastier

Yeah I saw 32l, but it leaves things very much in the hands of the individual Member states - with the track record of the UK government (all parties) I can see them using another interesting little clause to ban them. I'll try to dig it up, but there's something in there about the attractiveness of certain products & how all bets are off (or at least will be reconsidered) if sales increase by over 10%. With the current mini-boom in e-cigs, sales are increasing much faster than that at the mo.

Have you got down to the reporting & import controls for new products yet? Basically any new product type has to be registered at least 6 months before it can be imported, though it's very vague on how much difference from existing products will mean "new". Article 18A.2 (page 84) will restrict all but the really big boys from innovating.

And the amount of data that will be required on the packaging will be pretty hard to fit on a 10ml bottle!

So if this is voted on, and the UK voted yes, how long until it would come into effect?

Or, would a viable loophole be to sell the flavourings separately? Since the flavourings on their own are useless, selling unflavoured eliquid in various mixtures of pg/vg, and then selling the flavouring separately... Surely cant be made illegal any more than if i wanted to vapourise some cherry flavouring from Tesco.

Cherry food flavouring*

No, I haven't read down that far. That wording, or something like it, was there before though. 6 months is aeons in ecig innovation time! It's long enough for manufacturers to be producing version 10 of something. This will kill innovation in the EU - everyone in the know will just buy direct from china (black market) and those not in the know will be a bit fucked.

There's still this 'leak proof' thing too, which would catch pretty much everything out there except disposable cartomisers.

Oh they are so stupid stupid stupid.

Can they really not see that vaping is an improvement on smoking?
Do htey think that the electorate won't assume that they are doing this because they are benefitting from Big Tobacco (whether they are or not)?

What on earth can one say to people like this?

Not sure when it's due to come in. Yes, it'll only be the nicotine that will be difficult to get. If the vote goes through, I'll be buying a litre at least of high nic.

I also think it's very worthwhile learning to build your own coils and investing in something like this which will basically last forever.

Someone was mentioning upthread about the value of having stuff to fiddle with - I agree and absolutely love building coils now I've got the hang of it. I can roll a coil in the same amount of time it used to take me to roll a fag

I can think of several things I'd like to say to them, Cantabile

OK Page 106 deals with Transition times for Member States.

"Member States may allow the following products, which are not in compliance with this Directive, to be placed on the market until …* :
(b) electronic cigarettes or refill containers manufactured or released for free circulation before … ;
OJ: Please insert the date 30 months after the entry into force of this Directive."

So basically 2.5 years after this passes into European law.

Bah direct cut & paste had 3 * in both those cases, but they somehow got lost in posting! Whatever, I've re-read and it's definitely 30 months for e-cig stuff (thank goodness)

Ah, thanks allergic. We've got a bit of time to stockpile then.