To ask if you think that Knox is guilty?

[superstarheartbreaker]

I have no idea but it seems that her kissing her boyfriend at the time was seen as suspicious whereas I don't think that this is suspicious at all. DNA is...kissing one's lover.no. It's not even that inappropriate to kiss ones lover in the face of tragedy.
Didn't she do cartwheels though?

From the same interview:

"And on the bra fastener?"

"It's true that there was DNA which could be ascribed to Sollecito, but there was also the DNA of 3 other men. This demonstrated that the evidence had been compromised by contamination at the scene of the crime. That piece of evidence, photographed on the first day of the investigation, had been left there, in the bedroom. Only a month and a half later it was decided to get it and analyse it. It was noted immediately that, compared to the photos from the crime scene, it had been moved by over a metre and had ended up under a mat"

So it looks like it wasn't exactly discredited, but given that the fastener had been lying around for a month, no-one was able to prove at what stage and in what circumstance RS's DNA had gotten onto it. I presume the other 3 men were investigators or police, and thus eliminated from enquiries, but obviously, RS's defence could argue till the cows came home (and rightly so) that their client's DNA could have got there in any number of ways.

Those last few posts have really cemented in my mind that I would not have found them guilty. Thanks for all that information.

The bra clasp evidence is also suspect. From the independent experts:

• Stefanoni's conclusion that there were flaking cells on the bra clasp was not supported by any scientific evidence
• Stefanoni's interpretation of the DNA evidence was incorrect
• Stefanoni's statement that Y-chromosomes were present was not supported by the evidence
• Stefanoni did not follow the international standards for the DNA testing she conducted
• Stefanoni's conclusion that the clasp had DNA from RS and Meredith Kercher and no-one else is wrong
• the evidence shows a mixture of DNA from several men
• it is impossible to rule out contamination

Don't forget that the bra clasp was recovered over 6 weeks after the murder.

Overall it is possible that RS' DNA was on the bra clasp but, even if it was, that may be due to contamination. And there was DNA from other unidentified men on the bra clasp. Of course, this may also be contamination.

The only DNA evidence that has not been discredited is related to RG.

I presume the other 3 men were investigators or police, and thus eliminated from enquiries

You would think so but Stefanoni failed to identify the sources of the other DNA - not surprising as this would have undermined her evidence that the bra clasp only had DNA from RS and MK. The independent experts did not attempt to identify the other men.

Of course, if the clasp had been handled properly there would not have been any possibility of DNA from investigators or police.

It's not possible that RS's DNA was on the bra strap. RS's DNA was on the bra strap. According to the judge. It's just that (quite rightly) after a month, it couldn't be proved how long it had been there, or how it had got there. But it was definitely there. Again, according to the judge who ultimately ruled on its irrelevance.

Yes, I remember seeing the video of them picking it up, looking at it, passing it round etc.

The next bit of the interview- the journalist asks the judge how come DNA from S would be on her bra, does it mean RS touched it. Judge says no. RS had been to the house, had eaten at the house the day of the murder etc etc and any fragment of skin etc could have easily gotten anywhere.

I think the whole DNA thing, yet again, shows how we have all, over the years, been led to believe the stuff peddled by CSI etc that DNA=case resolved, when really, it does nothing of the sort.

RS's DNA was on the bra strap

You may be correct but the independent experts don't seem to have given a definitive view on that one way or the other. That may be because they agreed with Stefanoni on that point but they did not specifically say so.

For clarity, I'm relying on an English translation of the written report by the independent experts. It may be they gave additional evidence confirming the presence of RS' DNA. But as you say the presence of DNA on the bra clasp does not really prove anything even if it is not due to contamination.

Yes, I just checked again what the judge said, he said DNA "attributable to Sollecito". I suppose that word "attributable" is what would raise doubts, but anyway, due to the whole contamination thing, it could never have been admissible anyway.

I pu this on the other thread on 'In the News' but this thread seems a little more active so I shall ask here too -

Following these threads with interest. One point that has really stood out to me so far (and apologies if it has already been mentioned and I have missed it) is the use of pot the night before. However, on reading the letter that AK wrote to the Italian courts, 'Upon arrest I was tested for drugs and the results were negative.'
Is she lying about a drug test even happening? Or about not taking drugs in the first place? AFAIK pot can stay in the system for at least three weeks depending on your habits. Any ideas?

Ok found the bit in her own statement that says she smoked pot: 'I smoked marijuana with him and I might even have fallen asleep.'

Bridge - I'm not sure why you picked up on my post of 6.07? What I was saying was 'there are differing views for example the pp had said she was badly treated by the police but the follaine book says otherwise. Ergo too many 'truths' that contradict in the public consciousness.'
You replying and saying the follaine book might be wrong just proves my point.
I don't think any of us can call it tbh. Too many different interviews/books/ transcriptions that fit different views.

Is she lying about a drug test even happening

I don't know for sure but I think what she means is that the police tested for drugs other than marijuana and failed to find anything. At the time the police were trying to prove that AK and RS were using hard drugs rather than simply marijuana as that fitted their theory of a drug-fuelled sex game gone wrong.

I really don't understand their latest theory that the motive was arguments about flushing the toilet. According to reports I have read the prosecutor claimed Guede had defecated in the toilet but hadn't flushed and this led to an argument between AK and MK. This in turn led to Guede restraining and sexually abusing MK while AK and RS killed her. I note that the prosecutor in the latest hearing also reintroduced the discredited DNA evidence relating to the knife.

Nerfmother - Sorry, I misunderstood the point you were making. You are right about the vast amount of misinformation around. That's why I always try to check facts against reliable translations of source documents. Books, newspaper articles, etc. are unreliable unless there is confirmation from source documents. With that in mind, my information above about the prosecutor's case in the latest trial is drawn from newspaper reports. I haven't seen any source documents yet.

Thanks! Easily confused

This is from the summing by Crini on the Florence trial. It is not from the original Italian. Could I just ask where people are getting their direct translations from the original source? I

"The bra clasp. Regarding the DNA trace on the bra clasp, Crini acknowledged that it was a mixed trace, which makes interpretation more difficult. However, the police experts were in no doubt that it contained Sollecito's DNA.[5] The Y-haplotype was a very good match for Sollecito, although it could theoretically match other close male family members. However, Crini pointed out that Guede was identified from a Y-haplotype match in a mixed DNA sample.[5] Crini cited Gill and Balding [13] in support of the DNA match.[5] Addressing the possibility of contamination, Crini said that it would need to be be deduced from the context of the finding and collection of the bra clasp: if contamination is to be considered, there must be a practical way for Sollecito's DNA to have been transferred to the clasp.[5] He pointed out that there was no instance of transfer of Sollecito's DNA anywhere at the crime scene."

Interesting how Guede's dna was taken from samples with others dna on it on it too. They did more testing on the knife for the Florence trial.

When people are referring to Independent experts, do they mean the people hired by the defence to argue their side of it?

No. I mean the people hired by the appeal court to independently review Stefanoni's evidence. They were independent from both the prosecution and defence.

Do you have a source for your statement that they conducted additional testing on the knife for this trial? The information I've seen says they did not and that Crini continued to rely on the discredited evidence from Stefanoni. He did, however, try to introduce the idea that RS's penknife was the missing second knife.

PRH it says here they tested a second site on the handkerchief which also showed AK's DNA - which is fine as this was never disputed in the first place

themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nencini_Appeal

themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nencini_Appeal

This is what I just posted on my thread, but thought I would post it here too.

Weird it is, certainly. I like to think of it backwards.

Mignini - corrupt prosecutor - has a murder on his hands. He is kicking his heels waiting for the evidence to come in - it doesn't happen overnight, despite what you might see on CSI. He sees the young couple who called it in. He starts thinking of his sex game thing. He has form for this. Then he starts bugging their calls, gets their phones etc - remember there is no forensic evidence at all at this point. They are interviewed as witnesses.

BINGO - a text to a black man saying "See you later" This is misinterpreted totally as an arrangement to meet up later. They have AK locked in a room with no lawyer and put it to her that she HAD planned to meet up with Lumumba later, after telling her that RS had disputed that she was indeed with him all evening (ie they asked if him if she COULD have left at any point and admitted, yes, well she could have gone out whilst I was asleep).

They tell AK they KNOW she was there with Lumumba and ask her to imagine what went on. She is totally scared, tired and confused and does in fact "imagine" something, In fact they keep on at her until she "imagines" the thing that suits their theory - at which point they write it all down. And arrest them all. The next day - both of them retract what they said. RS remembers later that AK couldn't have got out of his flat wthout the key, reinforcing his (probably correct) memory that she didn't leave.

2 weeks later they find evidence against Rudi Guede and arrest him. It turns out that Lumumba has a rock solid alibi so they have to let him go - despite attempts to turn it in to a 4-way crime. Evidence FIRMLY puts Guede at the scene. He admits he was there and says it was a strange Italian man that did the crime whilst he was on the toilet. That Meredith invited him in. There was NO mention of AK being present.

At this point the police SHOULD have rethought their theory - remember the bra-clasp evidence hadn't been found yet. BUT - they didn't. They kept with the sex story gone wrong - they had already released LOADS of stuff to the press, the bloody bathroom/footprints etc. Those "sinister" kissing photos were all over the DM. They were FIXED on their story - despite the available evidence not backing it up. And they did everything they could to make the evidence fit the theory - including claiming Meredith died much later in the evening as AK/RS COULD NOT have been present at the time she most likely did die, ie around 9pm.

Yeah, I never understood that sex game thing. There's a big gulf between "socially awkward, finds your flatmate a bit square" and "I'm going to get my boyfriend of a week and I guy I've met twice to force themselves on you whilst I threaten you with a knife."

Nah - I think Occam's Razor applies here. Nice mc students who just met, do not murder their friends over poo, or because they smoked too much pot and fancied a bit of kinky sex. They just don't.

themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nencini_Appeal

If you scroll down to October 30th 2013, summary of Crini about the knife. November 26th as well.

Crini says it was falsely reported in the media that the knife didn't contain Meredith's dna.

Nobody has a link to a verbatim translation of the Florence trial in Inglese, do they?

Where is everybody else getting original source material (but translated) from? Rather than second hand and media stuff.

A LOT of the stuff on here is coming from pro Amanda sites.

At every trial the prosecution presents a case and the defence tries to shoot it down. It's how it works. The defence looking for flaws in evidence doesn't = disproved

The sex game and poo argument stories are just so far fetched. It just makes the prosecution look ridiculous.

I'm with you Porto. Occam's razor.

Birdsighland

Crini says falsely reported? Does he have an agenda at all?

\link{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10423880/Rudy-Guede-insists-Meredith-Kercher-killer-is-still-free.html\Telegraph from 3 Nov 2013}

'On Friday DNA tests on the kitchen knife allegedly used to kill Miss Kercher showed that it belonged to Amanda Knox rather than the British student, raising doubts about whether the knife was the murder weapon.
'The results of the tests were hailed as a victory by Miss Knox’s defence lawyers, who are seeking to prove her innocence at the trial.'