To wonder if the class system is relevant at my age?

[scantilymad]

The words we choose to say;
The schools we send our children to;
The places we shop;
Where we go on holiday;
The clothes we wear....

There seems to be an endless list of things that people secretly (or not so secretly) judge each other on.

I've just turned 30 and am genuinely intrigued. Does any of that really show what 'class' you might belong to? Why is lower middle looked down on? Do the upper classes care about all these rules?

I can't think of any of my peer group who would define themselves as a 'class'. We are just concerned with doing the best we can in all walks of life.

Is class even relevant anymore?

The older I get, the less I give a fuck.

In my 20s I found it mildly interesting
In my 30s I noticed class differences more but realised they were irrelevant
In my 40s I give not a shit

I like getting old.

There are privileged in all countries. I guess some are more fluid than others. I wonder if the British version is a vestige of the earlier feudal society. It was very much a them and us created by the Normans. They dispossessed the English people in authority and they only really married each others for centuries. The set up is still fairly entrenched if you look at large land ownership patterns. Some of their descendents are still installed in their ancient cushy patrimony. Things like universal education and healthcare are relatively fairly recent for the majority of the population.

Having said, I reckon a lot of plumbers and other 'tradespersons' don't let reflections of class nuances eat up too much of their time as they enjoy the fruitful rewards of their skills.

Societies with out a class system?

Well that would be a hunter gatherer tribe.

All post agricultural cultures have been hierarchical, currently in western societies the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing.

If you migrate from a poorer to a richer european country you are bound to find yourself at a lower position in the social scale compared to the one that you occupied in your country of origin.

If you remain part of the diaspora instead of fully integrating that would likely remain the case

The US is far from classless, the rich poor gap is especially wide and lack of free health-care plus lower welfare provision mean less redistribution of wealth / resources from the rich to the poor

Lazy there is certainly an economic divide in the US but it is less class riven than the UK.

Not entirely so of course.

But accent is not a big issue, nor ones background (if you make your fortune from scratch, you're positively lauded over there. Here, you're new money).

Race and religion, are however a Very Big Deal in the US.

Looked at in the context of globalisation IMO in this country now we have the underclass (those stuck in the poverty trap), followed by pretty much everyone else, followed by a tiny, international, super-rich elite.

To put it another way, you could divide the UK into those exempt from tax because they're too poor, those who pay most of the tax, and those who have made themselves exempt from most tax because their assets are all offshore.

Any attempt to draw distinctions between different strata of the middle class, or to judge/evaluate others based on those distinctions, is just tribal posturing really.

I think people mean different things when they talk about class, I mean that there are socioeconomic inequalities and that society is hierarchical rather than egalitarian.

I think some people are talking about whether and to what extent the
'old fashioned British class system' still exists.
If you are born working class will you always be working class no matter how prestigious your job?
So I think people are wondering if class is determined more by economic or by social status?

I'd say it's a complex mixture of the two, more complex than it used to be since life is more complex and people are on general more sophisticated than in say the 1950's

OTHM that's how I see it, though perhaps I see four groups.

The super rich. We're talking billionaires. The global elite.

The rich. They still work, but earn very highly, have financial freedom
and can expect the same for their DC.

The rest. Middle class and working class. Don't have financial freedom and nor will their DC.

The excluded class.

On a global scale we also have the 'bottom billion' who live the lives of fourteen century peasants in lawless war torn 'failed states'

OTHM I think your description is very accurate. I will admit that I probably don't have any acquaintances in any other class than a very broad "middle", other than a couple of landed gentry some generations back whom I know nothing about. Perhaps that's why class just doesn't seem so relevant - my circle of friends isn't as diverse as I thought? Although a good friend of mine is a single mum with two children and is very hard up, she is beautifully spoken and has similar aspirations for herself and her children as the rest of our friends. What defines someone as underclass? Awful description and it's use actually makes me sad and cross in equal measure, as I said before.

scantily I know a lot of families I think would be classed as rich.

Bringing in enough cash for financial freedom.

But not super rich. They don't own private jets or football teams. And most do pay tax.

Word. What would you consider to be financial freedom?

The ability to by what they want, when they want. Not Lear Jets, but certainly cars, holidays etc.

They can buy the house they want in the places they want. They often own more than one.

They can pay for the best schools and won't worry when their DC want to go to university in America. Or do a year long internship on no pay.

They are fully set up for retirement, which they can take at a reasonable age.

They often have income from several sources.

I agree with those who said race and religion are a very big deal in US.

and rich/poor gap being especially wide.

what I notice would never tell my friend is that she is a LOVELY person yet looks down her nose on the poor in her area - its all keep away from them. No sign of helping them.

She refuses to move south with her DH to his parents area as she is Jewish, their adopted kids are S Korean and she knows they will get racist attitudes towards them.

Her DH goes to church (Catholic) every Sunday, very observant yet quite liberal in his views on catholicism. You get strange looks (well I do as a tourist friend) if you say you DO NOT go to church/temple etc. My friend is an unorthodox/liberal jew used to be all into that but doesn't go to temple anymore. and just observes all the festivals passover but she's out Fridays (doesn't observe Sabbath). or at least I don't think she does, must check.

so in that respect there IS no middle class! The americans are loathe (although some of them agree and want to support Obama and healthcare for all) yet the old staunch repubs (my friend's DH family) no way are they in favour of supporting the poor!

I get pissed off beyond all reason when people say things like 'Oh I don't do class' or 'we live in a classless society now' or 'I'm Scottish/Irish, Social class is an English phenomenon'

What they really mean is that because they are on the winning side of the class divide of course they don't have 'an issue' with class or even see it as an isse , as it confers all the privileges on them. They are too selfish or too blind to see that they are getting huge dollops of unearned advantage.

It would be like me saying as a white, heterosexual male with all the unfair and unearned privilege that grants that 'there isn't a problem with racism/sexism or homophobia in this country because I don't experience it.'

Well of course I won't as white heterosexual men aren't routinely sexually harassed, denied job opportunities, beaten up for the colour of their skin or sexual orientation. I am not qualified to make the judgement as I don't experience its effects. Just as the upper and middle aren't able to say 'class doesn't exist any more.'