To wonder if the class system is relevant at my age?

[scantilymad]

The words we choose to say;
The schools we send our children to;
The places we shop;
Where we go on holiday;
The clothes we wear....

There seems to be an endless list of things that people secretly (or not so secretly) judge each other on.

I've just turned 30 and am genuinely intrigued. Does any of that really show what 'class' you might belong to? Why is lower middle looked down on? Do the upper classes care about all these rules?

I can't think of any of my peer group who would define themselves as a 'class'. We are just concerned with doing the best we can in all walks of life.

Is class even relevant anymore?

YY, I agree, it shouldn't matter.

Snobbery is the means to look down on other people on other classes though. It reinforces the divisions, and is actually pretty common.

Talk to people who have emigrated from other countries that are less rigid, most of them are horrified at how class bound we still are.

Dp is from another country, I am only half British and lived for years abroad - hence one of the reasons we become bemused by our neighbour's obsession with cars, supermarkets etc.

Y'know how the cabinet is comprised of slightly plump men in early middle age, who all speak the same, who all went to the same handful of eye wateringly expensive schools and then were at oxford and socialised with the same people, who all got their first break because daddy knew someone who knew someone?

That didn't happen by accident.

There's a fairly big class obsession in India too.

There seem to be extremes. I am sad that anyone would refer to themselves as an underclass. I haven't led a particularly sheltered life. I've lived in deprived areas of SW London and, without sounding worthy, volunteer at a local food bank. But the people I've met have all been lovely and either pretty unlucky or in a temporary situation. I never once thought any of them were lesser or better than me? It's just circumstance!

Class is sadly more relevant than ever as our current government represents the elite, i.e. the upper class (along with their friends in big business.)

If you don't understand this, their policies will make no sense IMO.

Although perhaps you could say in one sense class doesn't matter so much if you're outside of the elite: middle, working or "underclass", if there is such a thing, we're all getting totally shafted atm.

There is little to tell between the parties (and Labour had the last example of aristocrat in the Commons with Tony Benn who by lineage is an Earl). They represent, in the main, now a quite isolated Westminster village class - the Cooper/Balls being a good example of this. And I'd agree that they are 'removed' from the lives of much of the country.

Business is middle, not upper class, even if those successful in it are rich.

Tony Benn doesn't really work as an example.

Dave, Gideon and chums paint the picture much better - not aristos, but people who have no concept at all of what life is like for many people, who seem to have no desire to find out.

Obviously I was being really naive in my earlier posts. I was thinking more of day to day life rather than politics and the bigger picture.

The professors/earnest middle class types who drive old cars & shop at Lidl look down on people with shiny new cars who go on long haul holidays.

In some circles it's less obvious but I would say it definitely still exists and people can make very strong, rapid judgements based on their perception of your class. By background I'm not even working class-council estate, brought up by never working single mum. I went to uni, now work in a profession that's probably typically upper middle, and am married to a man who is upper by background. Watching these groups interact and seeing how they perceive each other, it's pretty obvious that class is still a clear issue and that it holds people back-not just the upper constraining the lower end but also the lower end perceiving the upper as snobbish, ,viewing jobs and activities as posh and therefore not for them.

I don't think it is obvious in daily life. It certainly is if you suddenly get isolated in a roomful of people in a completely different class.

I've noticed it's the new middle class/ lower middle class who are the the most obsessed with clothes, cars and houses - probably insecurity and wanting to show how well they have done in life.

I have a very mixed circle, so I do see that wc and old money are less bothered by people being "different" to them (in terms of language, aspirations, attitudes), than the MC ones.

My background, growing up in a rural area, as landowners and "top" of the social heap, was interesting ... We had status and wealth (in terms of land), but in comparison to our employees, had the oldest cars, the worst clothes and the least "fancy" decor... Those things were just not seen as important.

People need to feel good about themselves and have the urge to do things that make them feel better.

The problem is our society measures success and value as a human being by how many people are beneath you. Class is an easy if crude measure of this. Therefore to continue to feel good people (not all people) will act to keep down those beneath them, push down those that they consider their current equals and attempt to pull down those above. The higher up you are the more power and influence you have to do the damage.

That is why you get people like me, the underclass, once scum always scum. I call myself underclass because that's what others call me and I get the lowest class on the BBC survey too. I don't aspire to be upper class, I just long to be a proper human being.

I don't know anyone personally who is the slightest bit bothered what class they are ... Most of the people I know are probably "Wealthy or rich "
Working Class people a definition that does not make sense and shows how out of time the class system is.

The only people who seem to bothered by it are people on this site and Guardian reading middle "CLASS" "SOCIALISTS" who think they have a mission .

The class divide is old & outdated and almost impossible to reconcile with real life jobs & roles.

If you split it into Working, Unemployed & Rich it'd possibly be more accurate, but I don't know anyone under the age of 30 who could put people into "Lower Middle", "High Working", "Middle" etc.

What is "Working Class" anyway? Is it a BT Phone Engineer on 38k, is it a self employed electrician on more?

Is it dependent on where you live? Round my way a manager earns 20k, in London a worker earns 20k...

Background is irrelevant as people from all backgrounds can make it big & become wealthy or well off.

If anyones got a link to a graph or chart showing how I can find out my place in society I'd be grateful as I'd genuinely be interested to see where I'd be placed.....

The people who seem to care are the ones who think they are superior , but nothing about their life makes them interesting so they fall back on some class indicator from 50 years ago like that they went to uni or they live in a particular area, or their job.
Dull people.

I wouldn't know, I'm an Antipodean oik

Lillilly - Spot On!!

I have to say I disagree with Lillilly that it's only dull, ,posh people who care. I know plenty of people who would be lower or working class (in jobs like care work, ,factory work etc) who refuse to go to certain places, socialise with certain people and who have an absolutely awful attitude to people who they perceive as posh. My husband was turned down for a job because the person interviewing him decided his voice was too posh. She claimed that she could not understand him (he speaks very clearly! )

It cuts both ways ime.

hester, can you link to the what/pardon thread please? Thanks!

Class indicators are becoming more important to a certain sub set of the middle class.

This group have lost their traditional foot hold in the world because they simply don't earn enough.

So they augment the importance of external indicators (especially those indicators that don't actually cost anything). It matters hugely to them that they don't seem to be part of the homogenous group that includes the reasonably well paid working classes.

They need to feel above that group.

I disagree with Lillilly too.

In my experience, the less you have, the more important it is to show you have more.

I remember back when I had my daughter, we had what we needed for her, in my little group of friends it was the pair who more financially challenged who needed their babies dressed in brands (nowt wrong with George for us) with prominent brand names emblazoned on and had more clothes and toys than the rest of us, like they had a point to prove? They were also the ones who got ears pierced as babies and put jewellery on them.

Not for my that competitive displays of wealth.

Actually, they were the ones that saw us getting the pony as more of a wealth/class issue, whilst others saw it as me fulfilling a childhood dream and a pet/hobby and didn't question the costs (less than a night out a week as it goes!).

I have to admit I am interested in things like the school my DC and my friends DCs go to, where people go on holiday, what work they do, and what house they have. But we drive an old car and shop at LIDL as it's our nearest one, and think judging cars and supermarket choice is a bit pathetic. Possibly this is a reflection of class too, which I think is broadly middle with some influence from the green movement as well as being broke . Generally I don't judge people's clothes and I hope people don't judge me on that either, though I do notice some of the extremes from tweed jackets to shell suits.