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Original poster

To wonder if the class system is relevant at my age?

141 replies

scantilymad · 29/01/2014 22:35

The words we choose to say;
The schools we send our children to;
The places we shop;
Where we go on holiday;
The clothes we wear....

There seems to be an endless list of things that people secretly (or not so secretly) judge each other on.

I've just turned 30 and am genuinely intrigued. Does any of that really show what 'class' you might belong to? Why is lower middle looked down on? Do the upper classes care about all these rules?

I can't think of any of my peer group who would define themselves as a 'class'. We are just concerned with doing the best we can in all walks of life.

Is class even relevant anymore?

OP posts:
DanceParty · 30/01/2014 18:13

All those who say that they are not aware of the class system and never have been........have never come up against it in action against themselves. I have......it's not pretty.

StatisticallyChallenged · 30/01/2014 18:17

Agreed DanceParty - it can be very ugly in action

flamby · 30/01/2014 19:40

I went to a state comp and then to Oxford and I think it made me very aware of class (I had a great time at uni and loved it, but my eyes were seriously opened by the experience). I have a standard, RP type accent (and a very middle class, although not wealthy, upbringing) and I think it made fellow students less aware of what they said around me. Examples like:

"He'll never get anywhere in academia with an accent like that" - said by a student about my tutor, who had a very mild Liverpudlian accent and clearly WAS getting somewhere.
"I can hardly understand her, she will have to lose her accent" - about someone with a Mancunian accent (again very mild)
"It isn't fair to expect people to survive in London on less than £100k per year" - reported conversation between a friend and his boss recently.
"I can't understand how anyone can get less than a B in a GCSE exam" - said by someone who attended a highly selective private school.
"Don't tell X you bought that in Lidl, he won't have it in the house".
"The great thing about skiing is that it is a social leveller - people from all backgrounds can be just as good at it".

The point in all these cases was the lack of awareness of privilege and the expectation that everyone else has to change (accents, clothes and so on) to fit THEM. I love my friends very dearly but it blows my mind when we spend time together and they say these things (we are in our 30s now). They probably don't feel affected by class privilege but their class privilege affects others.

Sadoldbag · 30/01/2014 19:42

My in laws never let me forget it
And sadly it crops up from now and then in our marriage

bochead · 30/01/2014 19:58

Look at the treatment of the Roma across Europe, not just the UK for examples of how class still matters. Sadly your postcode can still exclude you from some jobs, schools or mortgages if you are unlucky enough to have a "bad" one.

I think class is something that can be ignored only by those lucky enough to exist in the higher castes. For those at the bottom it still matters far more than it should do in a modern democracy with supposed universal educational opportunities for all.

Our education system should be the great leveller, but sadly the child from Eton is always going to have more opportunities in life than the child from the inner city comp. The introduction of university fees and increased evening school fees has made social mobility even harder to achieve for those at the bottom in recent years.

grumpyoldbat · 30/01/2014 22:56

Absolutely bochead I find the impact two fold. There's the fact you can't apply for certain jobs etc. Then there's the disgust on people's faces when the look at you. The subtle differences in the way they behave towards you that make it clear you should not exist, that you have ruined their day by being there.

The former teaches you to know your place and stay in it, makes you feel guilty for trying to improve things. The latter makes you feel completely and utterly shite, makes you feel guilty just for existing, crushingly guilty for what you've sentenced your children too. I've never had much self confidence but peoples reactions to me being underclass has removed every ounce confidence I may have had making it difficult to get even the jobs I am allowed to apply for. As if starting applications on the back foot didn't make it difficult enough.

grumpyoldbat · 30/01/2014 22:56

Absolutely bochead I find the impact two fold. There's the fact you can't apply for certain jobs etc. Then there's the disgust on people's faces when the look at you. The subtle differences in the way they behave towards you that make it clear you should not exist, that you have ruined their day by being there.

The former teaches you to know your place and stay in it, makes you feel guilty for trying to improve things. The latter makes you feel completely and utterly shite, makes you feel guilty just for existing, crushingly guilty for what you've sentenced your children too. I've never had much self confidence but peoples reactions to me being underclass has removed every ounce confidence I may have had making it difficult to get even the jobs I am allowed to apply for. As if starting applications on the back foot didn't make it difficult enough.

grumpyoldbat · 30/01/2014 22:58

Ah not again. I've no idea how I am managing to make all these double posts.

grumpyoldbat · 30/01/2014 22:58

Ah not again. I've no idea how I am managing to make all these double posts.

MagratGarlik · 31/01/2014 00:29

My father was from an extremely deprived background. His father died when he was a toddler and he, and his mother and 8 siblings were sent to live in the workhouse. He was adopted by an awful couple and left school and home aged 15. At aged 17 he joined the forces. When he retired, he retired as a very senior officer. To speak to him, no-one would know or guess his background.

Similarly, dp's father came from a very underprivileged background. He retired as a member of the board for a major multinational.

Both dp and I have been fortunate in that we have been given opportunities our parents had to work hard to gain. However, from this, I have been brought up to believe life and opportunities are what you make of them. Yes, it is harder for some than for others, but not impossible. I'd also never dream of looking down on someone based on external trappings, though I'm well aware others may. I've also experienced reverse snobbery too though, the, "you're a doctor, you must be posh" - actually, no.

Lazysuzanne · 31/01/2014 00:58

swap the word class for 'socio economic status' and perhaps you can see why it is relevant, the more of it you have the greater are your changes of having a comfortable life.

grumpyoldbat · 31/01/2014 06:26

I think social mobility has declined over the last 20 years in particular. The housing market means you're more likely to be trapped in a post code that bars you from some jobs, university fees make getting an education, Government propaganda increase prejudice and therefore the willingness of proper people to employ us underclass.

Before I'm flammed, I'm actually working very hard to change things. However quite a few people have made it clear that once scum always scum so I suspect that my more difficult years will always be thrown back in my face by way of insult and means of excluding me from social circles. Not that I'd want to mix with people who despise me do much mind you.

grumpyoldbat · 31/01/2014 06:26

I think social mobility has declined over the last 20 years in particular. The housing market means you're more likely to be trapped in a post code that bars you from some jobs, university fees make getting an education, Government propaganda increase prejudice and therefore the willingness of proper people to employ us underclass.

Before I'm flammed, I'm actually working very hard to change things. However quite a few people have made it clear that once scum always scum so I suspect that my more difficult years will always be thrown back in my face by way of insult and means of excluding me from social circles. Not that I'd want to mix with people who despise me do much mind you.

superstarheartbreaker · 31/01/2014 06:29

Upper class don't give a fuck because they don't have to. Makes me very cross.

grumpyoldbat · 31/01/2014 09:32

The 20th century was the golden age of social mobility IMO.

Starting with the so called nouveau riche of the Edwardian era, industrialists being awarded peerages. The World Wars accelerated opportunity due to necessity. The introduction of the NHS and welfare state made it easier for people to remain healthy in hard times therefore were fit enough to take advantage of opportunities. Free education and nurseries for living costs which were much lower. Right to buy, lower housing costs etc. Official attitudes changed eg inspectors of the poor became social workers.

Now a large proportion of people are priced out the market, university is more expensive, living costs are higher, NHS is in turmoil, anti-poor sentiment is the highest I've seen it. It's the century of divide and conquer.

grumpyoldbat · 31/01/2014 09:32

The 20th century was the golden age of social mobility IMO.

Starting with the so called nouveau riche of the Edwardian era, industrialists being awarded peerages. The World Wars accelerated opportunity due to necessity. The introduction of the NHS and welfare state made it easier for people to remain healthy in hard times therefore were fit enough to take advantage of opportunities. Free education and nurseries for living costs which were much lower. Right to buy, lower housing costs etc. Official attitudes changed eg inspectors of the poor became social workers.

Now a large proportion of people are priced out the market, university is more expensive, living costs are higher, NHS is in turmoil, anti-poor sentiment is the highest I've seen it. It's the century of divide and conquer.

Original poster
scantilymad · 31/01/2014 09:37

So will this snobbery/class divide continue? Will three generations from now still experience these problems? I ask only because from my (albeit very limited) experience of people of my age or similar, it just isn't really given much thought. One example is a baby class I go to. It's free but there is a huge range of people that go. From single mothers on benefits to the wife of one of the partners at work. All a similar age - 30 or younger. All get along famously and I choose not to believe that they are all making snap decisions about each other but then smiling sweetly to each other's faces. These are genuine friendships. And this is the same at the firm I work in and the people I socialise with.

Is it just a question of educating our children not to make decisions based on a materialistic criteria?

OP posts:
SaucyJack · 31/01/2014 09:38

I used to think class was irrelevant until I saw the appalled look on my future IL's faces when they met me for the first time.

StatisticallyChallenged · 31/01/2014 09:40

Same here saucyjack-my fil was horrified!

wordfactory · 31/01/2014 09:45

scantily I think it can one of two ways.

Either the trad middle class will stick to their silly system, bury their heads in the sands of radio 4, organic veg boxes and Boden, and refuse to acknowledge the position their DC's find themselves in ie little better than the DC of the working classes.

Or they will wake up and smell the coffee...

Of course it isn't in the interests of the elite for the middle classes to wake up...

HelloBoys · 31/01/2014 09:45

I'm aware of class and it's relevance in society but I try not to let it infiltrate my life.

I am I suppose working/middle class.

My grandfather (mother's side) was from a upper class background in Germany - well servants really but high up servants working for nobility. Because of their status and wealth they had a very good life but due to dual nationality of my great grandfather (British/French) even though he had a German wife they lost everything twice over in both world wars. My grandfather never forgot this and was always bitter and railing against it.

My other relatives were working class but propelled themselves up to I suppose middle class through hard work but I doubt they would have seen themselves as anything but working class. even lower class.

I know several people who have degrees (my half sister) who are from working class backgrounds. Now she is bourgeois - maybe middle class by terms of wealth but certainly not by birth.

HelloBoys · 31/01/2014 09:47

Oh and the most snobby and rude people I have met tend to be Sloanes - in queues on pavements in Chelsea.

Some are nice but on several occasions I've encountered a nasty horsey type who as soon as I open my working class/private school accent they can tell I'm not one of them and take carte blanche to be rude!

Original poster
scantilymad · 31/01/2014 09:52

Does anyone have any experience of countries which really don't have a class system?

OP posts:
HelloBoys · 31/01/2014 09:55

scantily - America (where a good friend of mine) is said not to have a class system. but they're more about status and wealth.

My USA friends would certainly not consider themselves in certain classes openly but privately their house, how they educate their children (private schools) is middle/upper class.

Svina · 31/01/2014 10:34

flamby. Wow, revealing comments, hey!

Really interesting post, Teddyabc. I think what you are describing is being "other", as you say, you're not one of us

I think class is so much more complicated than we sometime give credit for. The op started by talking about
The words we choose to say;
The schools we send our children to;
The places we shop;
Where we go on holiday;
The clothes we wear....

But it is so much more complex than that. As teddy abc has seen, being European puts you outside of some classes. And there are so many other subtleties. According to the bbc classification, I am in the lowest strata of society, yet I know full well I am middle class!