To wonder if the class system is relevant at my age?

[scantilymad]

The words we choose to say;
The schools we send our children to;
The places we shop;
Where we go on holiday;
The clothes we wear....

There seems to be an endless list of things that people secretly (or not so secretly) judge each other on.

I've just turned 30 and am genuinely intrigued. Does any of that really show what 'class' you might belong to? Why is lower middle looked down on? Do the upper classes care about all these rules?

I can't think of any of my peer group who would define themselves as a 'class'. We are just concerned with doing the best we can in all walks of life.

Is class even relevant anymore?

What makes me laugh is that if I was judged on my car and my clothes I'd be seen as less affluent than I was 20 years ago despite us doing rather nicely now and being comfortably well off. I've got the oldest car I've ever had but works perfectly well and we are still in our first marital home. I'd rather save the money (not feeling the need to spend is one of the reasons we've been able to invest).

I guess those who are content just be, those with aspirations live to try to meet those aspirations and project themselves as they want to be seen.

I think one of the fascinating things about class is how people collude in it, despite it offering them very little.

Vast swathes of the middle class have far more in common with the working class than the richer sections of society. And yet they balk from accepting that, desperate to see themselves as superior.

The reality is that both groups are in the same boat and their DC will face the same problems.

The reason the less you have, the more likely you are to show off your possessions, is because there is an incredible stigma about being poor. I don't mean a stigma about not driving the right car. I mean a stigma about being properly poor.

If you live in a very poor street, people do look down on you. And you do feel this. So the desire, especially amongst young poor people, to try and show they are not as poor.

If you actually are not that poor, you don't feel that stigma, and so it is easy to choose clothes and goods that are cheap and very downmarket.

"There is little to tell between the parties" that is absolutely not true. I'm not saying Labour are great (I'm not a member of any party) but what the Tories are doing to this country right now is destruction beyond compare.

Labour were at least trying to make life better for people. The Tories are trying to make things more profitable for big business. They are screwing us every which way you look, and are particularly hammering the most vulnerable in society. Their policies only make sense if you look at whether they make a profit for big business.

That's the fundamental difference IMO. Unless you are in the elite / upper class, voting for the Tories is like turkeys voting for Christmas. The same cannot be said for Labour. You may not agree with their policies, but at least they seem to have the interests of the people at heart most of the time (when not waging hugely unpopular wars).

Two excellent posts there Grennie and threeleftfeet - agree completely with them both

Oh, and yours too wordfactory - MN is full of wisdom today

pleasenoscar perhaps what I should have said is I long to be treated like a proper human being and viewed as a proper human being.

Wordfactory you are spot on!

Going to Oxbridge from a Comprehensive school, having a well-paid career and enjoying going to the theatre will make you score 'elite' on the BBC index someone linked BUT the chances are you will settle down with/marry someone from a similar background to your original one who also went to Oxbridge/got a good job.

Rarely will an Old Etonian marry someone who went to a Comprehensive School even if they meet at Oxbridge and that is the true Class System in operation, the rest of the 'keeping up with Joneses' is just crass and matters not one bit to those who are financially comfortable. Maybe they are comfortable because they don't drive new cars?

UKAtlast, as someone who went to Cambridge from a comprehensive and have a well paid carerr and go to the theatre I did not end up marrying someone with the same background although I did also marry someone who went to Cambridge. However I think that that was much much more likely to be the case 15 -20 years ago than it is now, and more likely still to be the case 30 years earlier (my grandparents were coal miner and SAHM and two very middle class teachers). As such I do think class matters muich more now as we have less social mobility through education now than we did when education was free at university level and that that will mean that class slowly has more and more of an influence over society.

Personally I can't say that I notice class and mix with a very wide range of people, but I realise that that fact alone probably makes me very upper middle class/elite as the reason I mix with such a range is the job I do and the people who I indirectly employ (many of whom are also friends). Class doesn't matter when you have money, but it does when you don't as without money and opportunity it is so hard to break the invisible barriers.

We were told at school not to apply for Oxbridge as "people like us don't go there". DH was told not to try for higher level maths because it was"too difficult for people from around here".

every I think you have something there.

Being working class really meant something for a long time because it was a form of protection from those who would oppress.

Being middle class now really means something because it is (falsely IMVHO) a form of protection against the stark truths of the UK as it is.

For those of us, from whatever backgrounds, who have enough cash to do what we want, class matters less and less.

When I went to University, I was taken aback that most there thought going to a comprehensive was a sign that you were working class. Everyone I knew went to a comprehensive, and that included those who were middle class and lived in a good area, and those who really were poor.

Same here. I grew up in South Wales - unless you went to private school, and no one I knew did, all the schools were comprehensive, including the naice ones. Mine was the former grammar school and was considered the best school in the area.

I don't recall ever having a conversation about "class" or "social status" at university. I went first to Sheffield (undergrad) then to Imperial (PhD) and yes, some of my friends clearly came from very privileged backgrounds, but we never actually discussed which schools we had been to/what our parents did etc. I just can't say that we particularly gave it that much thought.

You don't have to "discuss" something in order to see and hear evidence of it.

I am a foreigner from a EU country and have lived here for more than 10 years. When I studied and worked in London I didn't really understand that class was important to the English or why. Some English friends tried to explain it to me (in a critical sort of way) but I just didn't get it as I wasn't familiar with it.

Where I am from there is a large middle class but we don't think of class so much. I would say that my own family background is well educated and intellectual as well as financially comfortable but by no means well off. But as I said in my home country class issues are not very relevant. Kids go to the nearest school which is either good or average and anyone who is intelligent enough, has an interest and studies hard can go to University for free. Most unis are good, there are no elite universities. Anyway, I never gave it much thought and moved to London .

Now I live in a leafy suburb with a young family I am definitely witnessing the intricate facets of English Middle class society. I have to say that some of it makes me feel uncomfortable. In my humble opinion one of the most defining characteristics I am picking up on is arrogance a sort of "I'm better than you because of the street I live on, the car I drive, the clothes I and my dc wear" attitude.

As I said, I would describe myself as mc also (well educated and financially ok but not really well off). However since engaging with other predominantly English mc mothers on a daily basis (from antenatal class, via toddler groups to pre-school) I experience subtle (or not so subtle) rejection, I think.

Not sure if this is down to xenophobia or 'classism' but somehow I am treated as 'lesser than them'. Thing is I never used to experience this whilst living in London which is probably more diverse in terms of class and culture. I understand that no one else can rally make you feel 'lesser' but I pick up on "you're not one of us" vibes which I am really surprised about and it's not a good feeling. Obviously not all mothers I encounter are like this, I have several defines who are open minded and not snobbish but there is definitely a trend ime.

Anyway, long and probably boring story short, i now feel like I and my dc are not part of this exclusive mc (and mostly sahm) club although demographically we would fit that profile.

Anyhow it's a eye opener and I shall, from now on, live on the fringes of respectable mc society and [slightly bemused and bewildered emoticon].

*not defines but friends

Some of these comments remind me of white people saying they don't see ethnicity.

Grennie Why? Can you expand on that?

Sorry, I just mean that it is easy not to see things, when you are not personally affected.

So if you are white and never really see any racism, it is easy to say you don't see ethnicity. It means ethnicity isn't important to you. But that is because you are in the privileged position of being able to ignore it. If you are black and subject to racism, you can't ignore it.

The same with class. Easy to say you don't see it, if you are in a well enough off position to be able to ignore it.

OK, that makes sense.

I think the trouble is that people honestly don't know where they fit into the class system. If it went on earnings - simple, if it went on possessions - simple, if it went on how much or how little debt/credit you had - simple.

But the old model of Miner, Bank Manager & Factory Owner doesn't fit in with what people are doing now - you can get stockbrokers that grew up in nasty Dagenham Streets earning millions & well off children of graduates that can't hold down a job stacking shelves.

Very confusing!

It's definitely harder to "define" class now - I think things are more fluid, many manual jobs or trades are very well paid, where office/admin jobs are often very low paid.

There are some people I could easily pigeonhole (most of my family and in laws!) but there are a huge swathe of people who I would struggle to categorize. Myself included.

That's not their fault though Grennie. You can't go round noticing things which genuinely aren't there in your day to day existence.

I don't think saying that class prejudice doesn't affect your life is the same as denying that class prejudice still exists.