to say "pardon?"

[matildamatilda]

So I'm American and in the US it's not rude to say "What?" when someone calls you or when you didn't hear something.

It's informal, but not at all rude. Especially if you say it in a pleasant tone. So kids wouldn't be told off for answering "what?" the way they are here. It's just "what" as in "what did you say?"

Since I've lived here I've been training myself to say "Pardon?" but I just can't get the hang of it. It sounds kind of... supercilious maybe? Huffy? Am I just not pulling it off?

I usually end up saying, "Here I am, " or "Sorry did you say something?"

Do you say "pardon"?

I can hear my Nana so strongly in some of this thread - she was born in 1895 and solid Midlands working class. I am pretty sure she always said 'looking glass', and the kitchen was the scullery.

I think though this XKCD nails it: xkcd.com/1322/

Dawntigga is spot on. What we have here is a linguistic remnant of the English class system. Some words were considered non U by the upper class such as saying toilet instead of lavatory and mirror instead of looking glass. Pardon instead of what was one such Hyacinth Bucket word. I still say what because it was dinned into me by Victorian grandmother, but no longer feel I have to eat jelly with a fork which was another of her things. Today I guess we all have more important issues to deal with. If I remember rightly it was dealt with in Nancy Mitford's book U and non U.

Granny24 is right; this is a leftover of the class system. When I was a child 'pardon' was reserved for a loud and irrepressible belch.
My parents' sisters were aunts not aunties.
It's all a bit out of date now isn't it ?

I don't understand the classification of words like "pardon" and "toilet" and "serviette" as rude on this thread. Please can someone explain.

I get the marking you out as aspiring lower-middle class thing. Well, if my parents or grandparents were aspiring lower-middle class, so be it. I'm not ashamed of my roots.

But why would it be rude to appear to be lower-middle class ?

Spooked, you're right, they're terms which are linguistic class markers associated with the LMC, but not 'rude' at all.

I do think, however, that using them is seen as déclassé by some of those further up the class system - the whole 'Mummy says 'pardon' is a worse word than 'fuck'' thing. So the use of them is seen as equivalent to farting or showing your (LMC) pants in public, if you see what I mean.

What I find fascinating on this thread that all the people who are objecting to 'what' as rude are equally incensed that people who say 'what' find 'pardon' objectionable.

You say the words you've been taught to. I don't like the words 'toilet', 'pardon', 'may I' etc… because my mother drilled it into me that we don't say those things and that I could use those words amongst my friends and at school but that I wasn't to bring them into the house (like stray cats). I still don't like the words and object to them being uttered by my daughter. It's not done for snobbery it's that I think it sounds ugly and it sounds ugly because I've been taught that… ad infinitum.

Those people who've been taught that 'what?' is rude also have no rational base for that assumption, it's what they've been taught.

But do you partly object to hearing your daughter say toilet' or 'pardon', Enb76, because of the possibility (or the certainty!) that she will be judged by others for using elements of a LMC vocabulary?

I'm not being snide here - genuine question. I am a foreigner, and to an extent exempt from UK class rules, but my toddler son will grow up here, and be subject to class in a way that DH and I are not...

But do you partly object to hearing your daughter say toilet' or 'pardon', Enb76, because of the possibility (or the certainty!) that she will be judged by others for using elements of a LMC vocabulary?

I think anyone who objects to someone else sounding 'lower middle class' is a douchebag, Pigeon. I mean, that's seriously nasty.

I guess people like/dislike words for their own reasons. But to bring class issues into it is pretty grotty.

No, I object because I think the words are ugly though I am fully aware that I've been socially conditioned to think that way.

Toy-lut sounds grating and harsh as opposed to the more mellifluous 'loo'

I also dislike 'mum' and refuse to be called it.

However, I do not judge those who do use these words and I think you'll find that most people couldn't give two hoots. The most judgement seems to come from those who find the way I speak rude, too informal or have some inverse snobbery from thinking I'm posh when really, I had about as much choice about the family I was born into as they did.

As you are a foreigner, you are exempt and your exemption will extend to your children because they'll always be able to use you as an excuse.

Hmm. Well my mum drilled 'pardon' into me.

But I don't like it, so have rebelled and use 'what' or if there are circumstances where a simple 'what' seems too abrasive I use a 'sorrywut.' all one word

"Well my mum drilled 'pardon' into me.

But I don't like it"

It's ugly isn't it? :)

This is really interesting! DH and I have some major differences of opinion on what's polite and what's rude... all based on what we've been taught as children. I think I use 'what' or 'pardon' or 'sorry' fairly equally, depending on circumstances, but the only thing I find rude is how it's said; some people (ILs) can make the nicest phrase sound rude, but I like to believe that's just down to their accents (west coast Scottish).

There is a major difference with the ILs between 'what' (wot) and a higher-pitched, eyebrows raised 'whit', the former being 'what did you say?' and the latter being 'I really don't believe I heard you say that, are you that stupid, what on earth are you talking about, you raving lunatic?'

Btw before I upset anyone, I think the 'west coast Scottish' accent is very nice and doesn't automatically sound rude, it's one of the things that attracted me to DH!

I don't think anyone would object to anyone else sounding LMC or grand or whatever surely not. Actually the only accent I have ever experienced a negative reaction to is loud cut glass aristo. I had a lovely friend with a foghorn "posh" sounding voice and remember the glares we got when she got abit loud in public in downtown Cardiff.

Anyway as Enb76 says you gravitate to your socially conditioned norm. Am sure my friends correcting their DC to say pardon think my saying and teaching them to say what or sorry is rude. Its just how you were brought up and is hard to shift! I love looking glass as my granny used to say it and reminds me of her rarely used now.

And agree I find pardon just cringey somehow - don't care who else uses it just that I won't be.

And just to confuse me further, DF's midday meal was dinner, evening was supper. DM had lunch & dinner & DP has lunch & supper. I adapt to who I'm with, & for the moment at least DD calls all meals lunch.

Profondo, I'd like to think that people judging other people's use of linguistic markers associated with the LMC is down to individual nastiness (douchebagginess?), but I've come across it quite often, so it seems a bit mad to put it down to individually unpleasant individuals in every case...?

One of the places I've come across it several times in recent years, ironically, is middle-middle or upper-middle-class parents getting cross because a schoolteacher/childminder/nursery worker corrected a 'what?' to a 'pardon', and other such phrases - I wish I could remember the other ones. To the teacher/childminder, they were correcting what they saw as rudeness and replacing it with a more 'polite' word or phrase. To the parents, the teacher was 'wrongly' instructing their child to use the 'affected', socially aspirant terms of a lower social class than the child belongs to.

It got the same level of exasperation as a teacher marking a correctly-spelled word as wrong.

I have not read all the thread.

Debretts guide state what" as correct. Can you imagine Princess Anne shouting what?

Yes it's a class thing, WC and MC are taught to say pardon, what is considered rude.

" Can you imagine Princess Anne shouting what?"

Absolutely!

More like Whatho

Or should that be Tally Ho?

That as well

Yes, I can totally imagine Princess Anne bellowing "what?" .

"I have not read all the thread.

Debretts guide state what" as correct. Can you imagine Princess Anne shouting what?

Yes it's a class thing, WC and MC are taught to say pardon, what is considered rude."

I am pretty certain that Princess Anne uses what. It is not MC to say pardon.

Orlea, you're right that accent can have a lot to do with it. Me and DSis always talk about getting into Spanish trouble - when you've done something really bad.

If you're in Spain and you hear a parent telling off a child, they might just be saying "Stop that and be nice to your brother," but because they speak so quickly and animatedly, it sounds like "You devil child! You've brought about the apocalypse and heaped shame on the family."

Pigeon, I totally agree with you re: the teacher correcting a word that was spelled the right way analogy. Children shouldn't be told off for saying "what," unless they say it in a rude/abrupt manner. Same with "pardon" or "sorry." I guess language is so different wherever you go in the UK. Here in Scotland, if someone comes up from, say, Sheffield and says they have to do a wee jobby (meaning job) everyone will laugh, because jobby means poo to us!

For me "toilet" is normal and it's "lavatory" that sounds odd/pretentious. But I'm foreign so my views don't count. I find lavatory quite disgusting really, it sounds like the name of a factory/machine for shit disposal. It's such an elaborate word that it draws attention to itself. Whenever I hear someone use I feel like they are giving me to much information. I dislike being non-U, but I will always use toilet rather than lavatory.

I find american use of bathroom/restroom a bit coy, but not offensive.

(I also grew up saying serviette, however serviette versus napkin is a non-issue, as the need to say it never arises.)