To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

*Ok my opinion will not be popular and I might get flamed - but I do believe in "fat shaming"

Not shaming as in calling someone derogatory names or mocking them. But in terms of a health professional saying out and out these are the risks with the lifestyle you have chosen and what the future risks will be.

Supersize vs Superskinny - I think that illustrates the point.

I believe in empathy, but I don't believe in comforting people in denial.

(I'm referring to morbidly/obese - not just people carrying a little extra weight.)

And this is a rather ignorant thing to say, but when people binge or over/comfort eat - why not do that with healthier substitutes? I do understand that need and want to eat but you're still making the choice of what exactly it is you're putting in your body.*

I'm not going to flame you. I am going to say that I think you're incredibly fortunate to never have felt the crushing sadness that comes before or after a food binge. I've had a terrible relationship with food since I was old enough to buy my own - I didn't have friends, I was cripplingly shy, and had an alcoholic single parent. Food was my comfort, my friend, and the one thing I knew wouldn't laugh at me or leave me on my own. As a 12 year old who went to school with a mouldy cheese sandwich once because her alcoholic mother didn't notice it had gone off, I can assure you that chopping carrots didn't register highly on my radar when I came home that evening. I would devour all the sweets I could get my hands on because at that particular second, they tasted good and they comforted me.

As a result I'm only really learning about food now for the last couple of years, what calories are and how things are broken down in the body. I've probably had a sugar addiction for about 20 years. I joined a slimming club and was told I was 16 and a half stone, and I was embarrassed and shocked. Did this mean I never binged again? No. It didn't. Despite a year of hard work and a couple of stone loss, I know I have the potential to put on serious weight again. My eldest son was taken to hospital a few weeks ago and I reached for my old friends - cake and crackers and butter and biscuits. Every mouthful tasted like guilt, but it was comforting at the same time. Please don't be so flippant as to say things like "I don't believe in comforting people in denial" or "why not binge with healthier substitutes" .
Believe me, very few of us are in denial. Would you encourage an alcoholic to go and drink ten pints of water instead of beer?

People without food issues seem to forget that an alcoholic can avoid drink, or pubs. Smokers get quit aids, or can avoid people who smoke. People with food addictions still can not avoid food. So it takes an incredible amount of education and willpower to turn your back on something you've used as a crutch your whole life, especially when people see you as a lazy lump or a fat cow. Fat shaming isn't productive, it isn't helpful, and it isn't encouraging. We are already ashamed.

What a moving post madmammy .

Morriss is utterly correct about the huge numbers of people with no insight at all about their behaviour.
When I see food diaries that do not include any drinks at all - even when its cups of tea with three sugars every hour
Or parents buying their children big packs of sweets as breakfast, I know that there is a total lack of mindfulness, and little capacity to create such, in much of the population.

Wichita Compulsive behaviour is a mental illness that needs to be treated. When the compulsion turns towards food, all of the normal 'avoidance / aversion' therapies cease to work. Hence why the medics fail most people.

I get the well-educated thing, I do. However there are also addicts in all walks of life and I think it is a mistake to put too much blame on ill-education. Poverty can cause hopelessness, which in turn can cause low-self esteem and escapist addictive behaviour, perpetuating the cycle.

Wichita, I completely support what you say about our need to address the psychological issues before we can work on anything else re: disordered eating. No amount of healthy eating advice, 'motivation' from peers or exercise will do anything to help with the reasons why a person has an unhealthy relationship with food. It's like putting an elastoplast over a huge gash from open heart surgery.

I speak as a former bulimic. I also starved myself, but wouldn't go as far to say I was anorexic, but I was very, very thin as a teenager. I thought being thin would make me happy and that everyone trying to help was trying to sabotage my chances of being beautiful, desirable and 'good.' As a bulimic, I would binge eat like mad. I completely fetishised food, hiding Twix bars in my pillowcase, for instance. I remember walking around the supermarket with my mum, starving, looking at cakes and sweets, thinking 'if only I could have that and still be thin.' And I was bloody thin!

It took me a long time to get over that. Some familiar, frightening feelings have crept up recently. I'm on anti-depressants for an anxiety disorder and, without changing my eating habits (I swear), I have put on a significant amount of weight. I have been tempted to throw up my dinner, but have not done it and I know I won't. I don't enjoy being bigger than I was, but I'm glad, at least, that I have an appetite. As anyone with an anxiety issue knows, there's no joy to be gained from losing 3 stone due to being unable to eat and constantly throwing up with nerves. I think that put things into perspective for me a bit re: food and weight.

ALL of these feelings related to food and my body came from psychological illness, NOT from greed or because I just loved cramming in Double Deckers. Without proper attempts to understand and treat the psychological causes of disordered eating, and to treat sufferers with empathy, we/they won't get better. This is why it annoys me when posters on here go on about the physical health issues of being overweight, because we know the risks. I just want to say "well, lucky for you, being mentally/emotionally healthy enough that food isn't a massive emotional issue for you." As I said, a sticking plaster over a huge, open wound is no good.

I hope you're OK, Wichita, and commend you for a good, insightful post.

I read a study that had a group of obese people in hospital where they were monitored and given no food at all to lose weight. They all said it was massively easier to not eat at all, than to eat in small amounts.

And there is a difference with those who just have shit diets. Slimming clubs can help them, because they just need to understand how to cook and eat well, and what a normal portion looks like.

Many obese people know exactly what they should be eating and know the calorie counts for lots of food. It is not lack of knowledge that is the issue.

I have written food diaries for nutritionists. And lied through my teeth. Because I was ashamed. It didn't mean I was in denial...

Yes I agree it needs psychological help - I think that is what most of us have said...

Thanks profondo. I am fine. But I am weary of lying, protecting supply, secret eating. I am a nice person and this is all consuming. It fucking sucks. I am so glad for you that you are so mindful of not using on your feelings. And long may that last.

I actually function very well day to day. I just wish I could be free if this.

The "trouble" with food is that we all have to eat, no matter how fat or thin we are. If you are giving up cigs, smack or booze, then you can just cut them out all together. It is still hard, but you can keep away. Food is everywhere; we have to prepare it for our children, people eat on the run, in public and there seems to be a fast food establishment every half a mile. It's hard OP and I don't think the diet industry helps. Good thread.

I wish I had some good advice to offer, Wichita - I do still eat too much from time to time, but not like I used to. I smoke (and have unhealthily obsessive feelings about it, as you say lying, protecting supply, secret smoking, in my case). But I think it can get better. I really, really do.

One thing I can tentatively say I've found quite helpful in dealing with my feelings/compulsions is mindfulness meditation. I was doing great with that for a good while, but got out of practice and have just come out of a very bad anxious episode. But I've enrolled on a course, so I can dedicate time to it each day. The message of it is not to judge yourself or others, to cultivate ease of being which in turns helps you get past the bad feelings which make you behave compulsively. I'd really recommend it.

I also get peddled the "no eating disorders in Africa" line. You will find that many, many people there are addicted to solvents (I have lived there before I get told I'm talking shit). Same illness, different vice.

Interesting. I'll look into it profondo. Definitely having 3 small kids and losing your sense of self doesn't help, so it may be just the thing!

Thanks OP, I have learnt something from your post (and Marcus Brigstock's words). I had never thought before about how your 'drug of choice' is ever present, that must be incredibly hard. Wishing you well.

It was noticeable at my kids' previous school which had a more 'deprived' intake, the number of mums who were obese. It was quite striking. I used to wonder if they had all had abusive backgrounds or if they were depressed.

Thanks biscuit . If you have learned something then maybe someone else may think twice before oversimplifying this problem.

Wichita I can second Profondo on Mindfulness.
It works with all sorts of "pattern" problems.

Mindfulness is all about focussing on the right now, not judging the current moment against the past or the future.
Which for a food point of view works towards the 'not beating yourself up about the past and not anticipating beating yourself up about the future'
Its also about being honest with yourself, long before you worry about others as through honesty and focus can gradually come control.

be that over solvents, food, alcohol or work stresses ....

Food is cheaper than booze. And as I said down-thread I actually think it is a particular drug of choice for those who are disempowered and co-dependent. I guess that would fit with lower-income families, many of whom who are struggling to raise a family in poverty. I dunno...

I think overeating is a difficult issue, as bunty says you have to eat.

I do think that on MN there is a certain brutal honesty thing that goes on where people are far harsher than they would be in real life. But that goes for many aspects of our lives: the way we raise our children, behave in queues, interact with our DPs etc. I don't think that being obese is particularly targeted, though I think that if you have an issue with eating you will notice it more.

In the same way, Witchitica I think you probably overlay your own difficulties on others (please don't take that the wrong way). I meet countless people who don't feel they have a weight issue as they are the same size as their friends or really do eat healthily but do not do any exercise whatsoever. A subset of those do have underlying problems, but it is not the majority.

MN is a way for people to gain information and honest opinions, but people should never be insulted whatever is going on and perhaps we just need to get better at reporting offensive posters.

You can be fat and fit. People believe "oh I eat so much crap and I can't put on a pound" so why is "I eat right and exercise but I can't lose a pound" so hard to believe
I am (by BMI) overweight. I exercise a lot and eat well. My blood pressure is normal and I have a resting pulse of 62. I'm not unhealthy

WhitchitaLineman your posts are very instructive, the stupid comments if not seeing fat people in Africa make me cross but I had no idea if the solvent abuse issue, that's fascinating I guess everyone has a drug, some excersise to a ridiculous degree.

I can't add as I know little about this but to try and Shame someone into not eating is vile.

Grennie you tell your relatives what you think of them if they point out your weight. what a bloody cheek.

OP, I am sorry this has stemmed from childhood, and I find your post very moving

I think my comments in fact are not really related to your OP anyway

But I am genuinely curious as to the increase in weight issues/diabetes and the increase in shit food being cheap, and easily available.

I think many people do have the the emotional issues you state

But I also think alot is down to poverty, education, parenting too IYSWIM

please dont think I am trotting out "eat less, move more", I just get very upset when I see and read about overweight children thats all and I think we have to accept there are many issues at play, and the emotional issue you speak of is a huge factor, yes

But more, a small poll on this thread has shown approx 2 people who admit to being overweight because they enjoy overindulging. Many, many more have written movingly about their addiction to food.

Would you say that people who drink with awful consequences don't have an issue. Because it is exactly the same thing. It's about when the consequences become intolerable and yet you still engage in the same behaviour - that is addiction.

I gain and lose the same 3 stone fairly regularly, am very heavy at the top end ,ok at the bottom end. I do not know how to maintain a 'normal' weight don't feel particularly bad about it ,don't hate myself when fatter(like slimmer better) just can't do it. My eating is the first thing to go when under pressure. I am almost 40,honestly can't be bothered anymore.
Someone up thread mentioned about a family member with anorexia , I had a brother who almost died from anorexia, makes me think that we learned something wrong about food ,I can't think what. But honestly when I do I think about it I realise how fecked up my family seems to be ,which guess what makes me want to have a chocolate bar !!!!! Might be a clue there

Aw thanks you lot. And thanks most of you for not belittling the many brave posters for sharing their experiences. Apart from anything else it is so comforting to feel like I'm not alone.

I have two friends who are morbidly obese. Their stomachs hang down to their knees. They struggle to walk. Both are absolutely the loveliest people I know. Who would ever choose that life? One of these ladies I've known since nursery school and she's always been big but I know she's trying her best.
I like the saying 'don't judge anyone until you've walked a mile in their shoes'.
When I see someone obese I feel sad for them, and the crap they must go through. My dd1 was a chubby tween so I took her to sw with me to learn healthy choices as she was determined to eat rubbish given the chance. I was criticised by some members of my family but the reality is that being an overweight teenager is not a nice place to be. 5 years later she's a healthy size and eats everything in moderation.

I have my own issues with food. I get a kick from going to bed hungry and hate the feeling do being full. But I'm a healthy weight, slightly podgy but that's because I like chocolate more than I like being skinny :)
And I'm happy.
When I am unhappy I immediately stop eating whereas others would binge. I'm 6 foot tall and have weighed as much as 17 stone and as little as 9.
Not sure what I'm trying to say other than eating disorders are shit. I can have a crap day or a good day depending on what the scales say int he morning.

I'm trying very hard to teach my daughters 'healthy' eating rather than eating to be thin but it's so much more than that.