To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

The root of the problem is low self esteem. I don't believe that I deserve a healthy body so I will sabotage every diet or weight loss programme I ever try I don't deserve to succeed because I am rubbish, everyone knows this.

Marcus's statement sums it up nicely, OP. I like this bit particularly "You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse."

Why don't we then turn this whole thing on it's head? Take away the weight loss aspect and concentrate on improving our self esteem instead?

Much harder to achieve; no scales, no diets, no weighing stuff, no calorie counting, no measuring waist sizes, no special food rules...

I have been focusing on improving my self esteem by challenging my personal 'voices' which put me down and belittle me every day. It's a very subtle change that begins to take place; hard to measure. It's just a change in attitude and behaviour, a new acceptance of me by me.

It means practically that I can make choices about what I eat which can be kinder to my health, if that makes sense. I am worth it. One of the side effects is clothing getting looser and me having to look out smaller stuff in bags under the bed. I do not ever weigh myself any more, it's irrelevant now. Looking after my self-esteem and continuing to challenge negative thoughts and assumptions is more important.

It's not dieting though, so anyone who wants to "lose a stone by Easter" or "drop a dress size in a month" will be sorely disappointed.

I am not fat shaming at all. Like you I have spent the last 20 years being fat and thin and searching for the answer to my emotional eating. I do believe that in this situation that we are masters of our own destiny. If we aren't then who is? And who else has the the power to change it?

been treated by the most eminent in the business
sadly that reassures me not at all
The latest craze for surgery is being pushed because of fees, not because of outcomes for patients

All addictions need to be treated in the head as well as the body : gastric bands and VLCDs do nothing of the sort.

In almost all other types of addiction (drugs, alcohol etc etc) the treatment workers are former sufferers.
How many of the medics working with the obese or anorexic have ever been either? Therefore why is it a surprise when they do not 'get' the mindset?

Alcoholics recover when their inner desires to do other things than be drunk can be hauled up above their desire for booze.
Drug addicts ditto
Food addicts, although they can never give up food, can switch to eating mindfully - with a great deal of appropriate support.
Sadly appropriate support has not yet been developed by most hospitals and medics.

That's a bit harsh wichita. I think jennifer is just saying that there is a greater availability to overeating, over time our body will override our satiety reflex, whereas it is much harder to override our hunger reflex. I don't think there was a moral judgement attached to that.

Debs you tell your mum she's being very hurtful and unsupportive. well done for loosing 3 stone.xx

But all the counsellors in the treatment centre are former addicts. In fact eating disorders were treated with all other forms of addiction.

One of the tenets of the 12 steps is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction - it is based on the principle that all addiction is a form of control. It also suggests that you hand over to a "higher power". This sounds a bit "woo" but means different things for different people. For me it meant being accountable to the group in group therapy.

Addicts are fundamentally manipulative and it was important for me to let the rest of the group call me on it when I was being dishonest. That is what I mean by not being master of my own destiny.

I had to reach rock bottom and go into treatment on my knees emotionally. It took that for me to seek help.

Wichita
If you are not the master of your own destiny, who is, when you are away from the group?

But moreis, most of the people I know with eating disorders have no concept of appetite or hunger or fullness. So I think that this argument is irrelevant and does perpetuate the myth that overeating is caused by a lack of control whilst undereating is caused by immense willpower.

This is just not the case a lot of the time.

That is why, when following a 12 step programme you need to attend meetings every week (90 in the first 90 days) and why you have a sponsor. It's exactly the same for alcoholics.

I should probably follow my own advice and do this again but I am scared.

most of the people I know with eating disorders have no concept of appetite or hunger or fullness
the myth that overeating is caused by a lack of control

Overeating is caused by the brain having trained itself to ignore the chemical feedbacks that should semi regulate appetite.

Very low carb diets have been shown to reset the feedback loops that allow the stomach to regain control from the brain about what goes in.
Mindfulness helps a lot of people.

Saying that nothing can be done is copping out.
You just have to keep looking until you find the system that helps you get your mind and body back in synch.

Believe me I am working on it.

I have exposed myself on this thread. I know it is aibu, but it makes me feel vulnerable that some people are refusing to hear what I am saying.

I can't believe that some people are still arguing that it is to do with overriding appetite mechanisms. I have done endless low carb diets - south beach, Atkins, metabolism miracle.

I have had times of respite. I lost 7 stone 3 years ago and put it all back on within 6 months. That is not normal and I hate myself for it. Don't you think I've fucking tried all these things?

I have not given up hope. If you look at my earlier posts you will see that I have and will continue to spend vast amounts of cash on sorting this out. For my health, my happiness and that of my wonderful family who hate seeing me suffering and also find it incredibly frustrating seeing me killing myself.

I will not give up. But please don't patronise me.

In that case all I can say is - give Mindfulness training a go and good luck.

Thank you. I didn't mean to make this all about me and I am not nearly as miserable and joyless as I seem.

I didn't mean this thread to be about the way the obese are judged. I just wanted to give an honest account of compulsive overeating to counteract the usual generalisations.

Thank you for this thread Witchita. And all the other contributors. It's really wonderful to see this issue discussed in such an intellectual way.

I, like many others here have an eating disorder. I either eat too much or too little. I obsess about food. I feel suffocated and trapped by it. I have no problem losing weight when I'm in the right frame of mind but it becomes extreme, then unmanageable and ends in binging.

I'm quite frankly sick of thinking about it.

I went to the GP and tried to explain this and was given an advice sheet on healthy eating. The medical world just don't seem to 'get it'.

Has anyone read The Hungry Years by William Leith? If not you should - anyone who has struggled with binge eating and weight should read it. It's all about his own food issues, what caused them, the shame and humiliation of being overweight/ obese. Really fascinating, compelling and well worth reading.

Thanks for the thread Witchita, you'll get there x

Holistic hypnotherapy works on raising self esteem so could be really worth trying.

This is a very interesting thread.

I have always been slimmer than my dsis and when the weight starts to creep on I start calorie counting or just eat smaller portions. I have given her tips on losing weight and probably gave the impression it would be easy. In fact she struggles with having smaller portions/restricting herself as her love for food is greater than her desire to.lose weight.

I have little confidence and being a slim/healthy weight is one of the few things I can feel good about.

If we are talking her needing to lose a few pounds then perhaps she does just love food.

If she is morbidly obese I suggest it is likely that she hates food.

I feel fucking terrible that I may cost the nhs cash because I am fat.

No :(

The NHS is there to care for all of us when we are sick.

OP I totally agree with your basic premise about fat shaming. And the idea that fat is a visible "failing" whereas everyone else who goes home and drinks half a bottle of wine every single evening has an invisble failing so they don't get knocked for it or treated as less worthy.

So I get that.

However, I do think there are lots of things going on with fatness. Some of it is addiction-related and a form of self-harm. Some of it is not - but that doesn't mean it's actually any easier to fix.

Some people are just more motivated by food than others, more interested, less easily sated. Controlling that is hard too. And once you have put on weight through say an extra 50 cals per day over a few decades, it seems like a mountain to climb to get rid of it.

And then you add in our obesogenic society with calorific food available cheaply everywhere all the time and it's even more difficult. I am not sure there's been a massive increase in society's levels of psychological need but there has been a massive increase in obesity and I think a lot of that is just down to food being everywhere, all the time, and every day tiny steps being taken that make it that bit less likely that you'll stay active (selling off school playing fields, cramming the curriculum so no time for PE, giving people choice over schooling so children no longer necessarily go the local school they can walk to and so on and so on). None of these choices are wrong in themselves but they add up to a different society to one my parents grew up in.

Bottom line - it's a very hard problem to resolve. And if we were serious about treating it we'd start by banning cars and getting everyone walking again. And banning supersized food portions and chocolate bars as big as coffee table books in supermarkets...but that would all be anti-business and the nanny state and all that stuff that would never do. So easier to tell all the fat people it's all their own fault.

great piece by Caitlin...shame about the comments, as ever.

Good points quangle. I'm not sure that these things alone lead to morbid obesity though. That is a whole other level of eating and weight gain.

I think that in part the obesity epidemic has to do with a change in drug of choice due to cost, availability etc.

I take what you have said on board though. I just think that most people without an eating disorder could stop the damage before the consequences become intolerable. I have often felt like I would like to die (if not actually suicidal).