to think larger age gaps between children are not a bad thing?

[Flidais]

This is one of those things I had never heard of before having a baby, but is it widely thought of as a bit selfish to leave a big gap between children? I have posted on MN about how long to leave it before TTC again because I am still bfing my 20 month old and don't really want to risk having to stop before she's ready. I'm mostly happy with that decision.
However, two friends have small gaps and we all have a DC1 of a similar age.
In the time since having their second child, I have heard accounts from both parties describing the strain that pregnancy and a new baby has placed upon their bodies and relationships, along with worries about their elder DC's behaviour since the new baby's arrival. In all, I have worried about both of them and tried to help in practical ways because they've had a really hard time. This is all relevant, I promise.
Recently we all met up as a group for the first time since the birth of their DC2 and almost immediately received a few remarks about 'getting on with it' (having a second child) and 'poor DD loves babies- she would love a sibling' etc. All fairly light-hearted.
Later on, Dd asked for a bf as she was tired and fed up and friendA said (gently but with an edge) that if I had a new baby, I could stop babying DD and let her grow up a bit. I just laughed and said something along the lines of she IS still a baby in a lot of ways and I would just follow her (DD's) lead, but I did feel quite cross.
Then listened to mutual congratulations about how close their children will be to each other, conversations about how potty-training is going, big beds and naughty steps. I feel as if I am in a parallel universe. My Dd is normal for 20 months and seems about the same in development to my friend's children, but isn't showing signs of readiness for potty training (nor are my friend's children if accounts of accidents all over the house are anything to go by) or similar.
I am so proud of DD and how she is developing at her own pace, but I am tired of hearing how I should be getting her to grow up before IMO she is ready, or that I am somehow holding her back?!
So many people, (and I'm looking at family here as well) have age-inappropriate ideas of what to expect from children. It's not hard to read a book or look at mumsnet to see what's normal for a child's age.
From what I have remembered about child psychology, the bit of the brain that governs empathy isn't developed until about 4 years and this is reflected in the birth spacing of traditional hunter-gatherer societies, so the older child is self sufficient before another baby arrives. The contraceptive effect of regular toddler breastfeeding (plus other factors) accounts for this large spacing.
I am absolutely not claiming that this is a pattern we need to follow in western society, with myriad pressures that influence child-spacing. I don't even think I would necessarily want a 4 year gap. I am just trying to illustrate that a larger age gap is not actually unnatural (for our species) and from miserable personal experience a smaller age gap is not a guarantee of future closeness between siblings.
There is a bit of an air of martyrdom about this too, as though it's a bit shallow to think about your body recovering before having another-just do it, your kids will thank you. I actually felt really rundown after having Dd and still don't feel like my body has properly recovered enough to build another baby from scratch without being depleted further. This is my personal experience and of course many women feel absolutely fine and do really well with close-spacing, whether it's by choice or necessity because of time running out or childcare issues.
But this is how I feel.
So AIBU to think that if I spend months sympathising with the hellish time you're having, only to have you turn around and tell me I should have a go too, I'm not going to be terribly convinced?

I totally agree with ShadowFall

The pros and cons are different to each family as well, because we all do different things such as work patterns, who works, and the personality of the children as well.
I always think if there was no such thing as contraception and we had no say over when we had our dc (heaven forbid). We would manage, one way or another.
Our children are 22 19 and 10. We didn't plan such a large gap but dd was a little surprise . We managed.

I have two children, with 18 years between them. Perfect imo.
You know what is best for you and your family, do what id best for you.

11 years between me and my sister (full sister, not from second marriage or anything). I love it.

She was old enough to be nice to me as a little one and she has always been good to me growing up. As a result we meet up pretty regularly and despite being at different stages of our lives we get on really well.

My mum and dad were way more chilled out with me as they and done it all before. They had more cash for each of us - never had two in uni for example.

Only downside is that I was effectivly an only child once she left for uni when I was 7 and I spent a lot of time playing ok my own or around adults. Also my cousins are by sisters age so I felt a bit left out there. But over all very positive for me. And seemed to suit my sister too - she liked having a little sister and didn't seem to be jealous or resentful of me 'taking her place' or anything.

Small gaps work best for some families, bigger work better for others.

You're way overthinking it. Your friends sounds fine to me, they just have different attitudes to parenting. It happens.

I've got a big gap, nearly 10 years and a small gap of 21 months. We are a happy family. I really don't care how other families space out their children.

I haven't read all the other posts so I may be repeating but it sounds like your friends want you to do what they have done to confirm they have done the right thing. There is no right way, its up to you and there are advantages and disadvatages to small and big age gaps. I have small ones between mine and its very hard work . yes they are close but also fight a lot!! If I had a bigger gap, the baby years would last longer and I would have more time to focus on each child. Swings and roundabouts, you do whats best for your family x

My LO is 17 months, and yes around me there are people having second babies, so it does feel like I'm holding off somewhat and feel quite broody. But in reality a three or four year age gap isn't really a big one.

I also bf, and its funny because again I do feel like those who are on to their second babies are 'babying' their first ones a bit less, seeing them more as "big sister" or "big brother" and expecting a lot more of them. Mine has only just started saying words in the last month or two although he understands quite a bit more - he still feels very young. He needs me so much, I can't imagine having another baby to take care of right now.

I don't think I'm holding DS back in anyway though. He'll have plenty of his childhood not breastfeeding ahead of him for a start. I'd like to parent his siblings pretty much as I have parented him (as much as is possible anyway), so I'd like for him to be able to be occupied with an activity either at home or at the park for a while while I'm breastfeeding the baby, he's just not ready for that yet, I'm still having to run after him every five or ten minutes.

There's so much to think of when planning an age gap: personalities, fertility, breastfeeding, parental ages, lifestyle, childcare costs, etc. And then there are things you can't plan for - taking longer to concieve than you thought, miscarriage, contraceptive failure, the personality and needs of the new baby etc.

I think an 18 month age gap has worked okay for my Dsis, her older DS is reasonably verbal and sensible, her younger DS is very laid back and easy going. She's happy to rely on family for help with childcare, and as she works her first DS was already used to mummy being busy or away doing other things. But I just can't imagine my DS being ready for a sibling yet, and I'd rather not leave DS with family reguarly yet.

But then if we had had a surprise baby then we would have managed I guess. We don't want to leave it too long to TTC because it took a long time to concieve DS (part of the reason that I'm savouring every stage with him I guess, I had time to really long for a baby, and know that he may end up being an only not by choice) and because of DH's age. But there are reasons to wait too - my fitness, needing a bigger home etc. It's never going to be a perfect time to try either.

As always, do what's right for your family. I came from a big one with lots of different age gaps, there are positives and negatives to each and the quality of relationships is affected by much more than the age gap. Like you, I think the more lesuirely approach suits us and our little one.

13 and 15 years between me and my sisters and yes I was planned. Had lots of fun going out with them to fun places when I was younger and it just meant my Mum had to plan a few more play dates so I wasn't by myself a lot. Do what is right for you!

Large age gaps aren't always a choice. Friends of ours have a nine year gap because it took them that long to conceive DD2.

For us, well for me, when DD1 was a baby the thought of having another baby seemed absolutely stark raving bonkers, both in terms of not feeling recovered, or getting my mojo back after having a first child. When she got to about two I started to think about it but the timing wasn't right as I'd just changed jobs. Also I really didn't want to have two in nappies at once, and she was so demanding as a toddler again it seemed mad to think about having another, more demanding baby as well! So we had DD2 when DD1 was 3.5, which was about right for us.

Yes - childcare costs were another factor. Didn't want two in 3 day a week childcare - only had to do that for a brief period.

TheTallestTower

I think human female endocrinology is very variable. When I was a child, my mother used to be horribly, horribly judgy behind women's backs if they had children close together, because she was certain that meant they hadn't breast-fed. I am considerably naicer than my mother so I looked up breastfeeding's effectiveness as a contraceptive in the medical dictionary. Statistically, as you related, breastfeeding doesn't work that well. I put this down as yet another of my mother's odd ideas, that have nothing to do with reality, and forgot about it.

Then I had children. And I got roughly three years period-free due to breastfeeding, even once I was down to a bedtime feed. Suddenly, my mother's blind insistance that breastfeeding was a perfect contraceptive made sense. I must have a gene or genes that mean that my body suppresses ovulation more reliabily in response to breastfeeding, which I inherited from her. Other people aren't so lucky. My mother wasn't deluded to have found breastfeeding personally effective, and the women who found their period returned within weeks of birth weren't lying.

I don't think a 4 year gap is a large gap tbh.

There are 17mths between my two, it is hard work but I love it and it does work for us. The gap would have been smaller if I'd conceived when we started ttc though.

I got lots of comments like 'Are you mad?' from people which I expected to be honest, but it was equally rude. It is no one's business but your own.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I am really reassured that so many people seem to be happy with their age gaps, large or small. Just reinforces the idea that there is no one 'right' way of doing things and my friends are being silly.
In answer to the question up thread, the friends in question are from an ante-natal group so conversation is always going to be more child-centric than usual. They are actually really nice people and I enjoy their company. I am, as stated a few times, definitely over thinking the issue, but as a fairly neurotic first time parent, I am inclined to obsess over things which will have a big impact on DD
A couple of mentions about the fertility thing Tallesttower I am not relying on bfing as contraception, don't worry. My reference to an extended contraceptive effect refer to societies in which unrestricted access to the breast is common (far more than any of us will probably nurse,) and lower fat reserves because of a sparser diet causing delayed return of menstruation. Def not applicable here, although like many AF didn't return until a year after birth, so couldn't have had a very small gap even if I'd tried!
To Miaowthecat, I think you are referring to my post being 'sneery' about small age gaps, so I am sorry you have felt that.
Festivespiritedwolf- your post kind of sums up how I feel about Dd. Of course she is not really a baby, she is a lively funny little girl who likes to do her own thing, just finds comfort in a bf now and then. I absolutely think that continuing to bf is not harmful, is just meeting a need and when she's old enough, she'll outgrow it. (According to the HV's red book, they're technically infants until they turn two anyway )

I forgot, in response to the poster saying she felt ready for a small gap and that it isn't martyrish to feel this way, that was my point! I actually said immediately afterwards that many women do perfectly fine with close spacing and fwiw I think you can actually benefit from increased blood flow to the uterus if you conceive within a certain period of time from birth. What I was trying to say, is if you already feel like your body is knackered from the first pregnancy, there is no medal for doing it again quickly and it's madness to act like there is. Equally, it is not shallow to want to allow more recovery time, I agree that we all have different bodies.

I'm about to have my 2nd. My 1st is in Reception and just five, and is delighted to be a sibling, whereas until he was 3 he was appalled when anyone suggested it. I have shitty pregnancies and have been able to rest while he's at school, and he's old enough to understand my tiredness and sickness without feeling neglected. And when the baby is here, I'll have time to each child without that being a massive strain, because he'll be at school in the days so I can then just see to the baby's basic needs when he's home, but mainly focus on him, because I'll have had all day with the baby as just a duo. He's fairly independent and has his own life and friends now, though obviously also still a very young child who needs mum, too.

I'm really happy with the gap tbh. Much less hard work than close together and I suspect probably less jealousy for them as well. And 20 months is tiny by any rational standard, and still inside the WHO recommended breastfeeding minimum, so that's silly even without insinuations that potty-training is late - the average is apparently around the 3rd birthday mark.

YANBU.

Incidentally, two very dear mum friends have theirs a single year apart - as in, within a week birthdays - and it works brilliantly for their families, and they are wonderful mothers. Not saying my way is the right one... just (as you say OP) that it is right for me.

I read in a book that 3 years was recommended by an psychologist to enable the older child to have a full babyhood.

Non of my kids at 20 months were potty trained or in a big bed. All were still breast fed.

I have a mixture of age gaps and they all work well due to their personalities. However if I was to recommend a gap 3 years would be it.

Maybe even 4

My brother and sister were born fifteen months apart. I am nine years younger than my brother. Large age gaps are hard when other siblings are much closer in age.

Still a few negative comments about small age gaps- thd poster whose sister's dc are "used to mummy being busy and not being around because she works", but that poster "doesn't feel ready to hand over childcare to family" or something like that (sorry not directly quoting as on my phone). Ouch and miaow.

Oh and lots of implications that small age gaps mean that the older child(ren) is/are being let down in some way and being made to grow up too quickly.

In my 6 year old DS's year, there have been five babies born since September!

I think your friend is trying to convince herself that she's done the right thing.

I'm all for bigger age gaps. My two stepsons are 2 years, 2 months apart and they were, and still are bloody hard work. When they were toddlers they were exhausting and now that they are pre-teens the constant bickering and competition between them drives me insane. Children close in age aren't always close in relationship. I agree with the benefits of a 4 year age gap and have read studies that suggest that it's psychologically better for a child not to have a sibling until 4.

YANBU. Regardless of anything else, when you have a second child is no one else's business.

I have a four year gap (polishes badge) because obviously I knew exactly when I was going to conceive, 'cause my ovaries do exactly what I want