...to expect obese people to take responsibility for what they eat?

[Tabby1963]

"If I don't do this, no one's going to help me, and if I don't help myself I'm going to end up dying."

"I should have done something about this, I should have tried harder".

These quotes from a lady on BBC News this morning, and she hits the nail on the head.

As someone who has also struggled with weight issues for most of my life I feel that it is my responsibility what I put in my mouth, and expecting the NHS to fund my weight-loss op is very unreasonable. It is a waste of time unless I actually change my behaviour voluntarily, and if I change my eating behaviour voluntarily then I will solve the problem myself.

Over lunch today, a very healthy work colleague was saying that if the body has the choice to use healthy fat or toxic fat, it will use the healthy fat first. This might explain why sometimes it is very hard to loose the toxic fat that is stored around the tummy. Apparently if there are toxins in the blood, the body will automatically try to get the toxins away from our vital organs and will elimiate the toxins in any way at all, expulsion from the body or push the toxins into fat cells.

When the body then needs to burn fat cells, it will automatically choose the healthier fat cells.

So some fat is harder to lose than other fat. According to my colleague the way to lose toxic fat is to take out all the toxic fats from your diet and replace them with healthy fats (avocados/nuts type fats). Eventually the toxic fats will be flushed out and you will replace it with healthy fat, which is much more mobile and easy to shift.

All of the above is hearsay, but I thought it was interesting.

I think it would be unwise in any case to overlook the impact of contextual factors when determining reasons for obesity. It is definitley on the rise, of course there is an element of personal responsibilty in there somewhere, but these trends dont arise solely on that (else they wouldnt be trends of/c). We have to look at marketing, food prices, emloyment, free time for exercise and other social factors. It is niave to blame it on indivudals when the evidence so clearly shows us that that is not what is going on here.

Surgery is not really the answer. A well known Radio 2 female presenter had a gastric band and then carried on over eating. She said she wanted to beat the band so forced liquidised food down her throat.

MoreCrack - you can 'agree to disagree' all you want, pretty much all research shows that foods are physically addictive and anything can be so because anything can trigger a dopamine response physically in the brain that leads to addiction. Hence why gambling is treated as a physical addiction - as it is well known for the dopamine high and crash it can give - even when not ingesting it. There is no point of separating physical from psychological addictions other than to make one more valid than the other, when actually it addictions that involve dopamine and/or ingrained habits that still change the way the brain works. It's all has physical impacts.

And actually, the overeating and not enough movement (exercise and movement are not the same thing - many who 'exercise' but move little outside of that aren't better on paper) doesn't 'just simply' lead to obesity. There are people who over eat, have very poor diets, and move very little - and are still a 'healthy' or even underweight. I have several of them in my family who will eat giant meat-heavy meals and a whole cake themselves and still look like we'd snap in half from a strong breeze. I've been there myself. There are people who are metabolically healthy with a BMI that is overweight even to obese for whom it would damage their health to lose weight.

Nothing in this is simple, everything is more complicated than pop media can leads one to believe. What gets research funding is more to do with industry than what we need to know. What has been shown is personal and media shaming that currently goes on to get people to "claim responsibility" causes people to GAIN weight, not lose it, and if we're going to claim that people have a 'responsibility' for what they eat, it should surely be everyone, not just for people whose eating is visibly noticeable. My being able to live on pizza and cake and still not get to 8 stone sopping wet surely isn't any more 'responsible' than someone who does so while overweight.

Or maybe this whole 'responsibility to be healthy debate' purposely chooses to ignore this complexity, fuels this type of debate on a wider scale in such an ableist manner (as some people, no matter how 'responsible' will never be healthy and for some people being a healthy weight by a population scale like BMI is unhealthy) to push the 'these unhealthy people are burdens who refuse to take responsibility' mindset further, so we can ignore social and industry barriers for a wider range of issues as well.

I haven't caught up with the latest on this thread yet but I was interested in a post on this thread or one similar when a poster cut through the well meaning advice to say that overweight people do not want a healthy diet advice, they just want to lose weight. I realise that this is a generalisation but I am wondering if it has any truth in it?
Another thing I have noticed is the animosity from fat people towards formerly fat people who seem to want to share what worked for them. I have found this very vitriolic and I wonder what is behind it.
I have also noticed that fat people seem to think that healthy people are watching them eat. I am not aware of watching people eat or how much they eat.

Re my first para:
I remember the name of the poster who said this and she said that she was oversized herself. It reminds me of Edina in AbFab saying 'who wouldn't risk a heart attack?' For weightloss. 'They treat royalty!'

I think the obesity and unhealthy lifestyle problem is going to only continue increasing.

It is so so sad, every time I am out and about, at any time of the day, morning, midday, right after lunch time, afternoon, I see mothers (usually overweight) giving their toddlers some sort of unhealthy snack, completely unnecessary, always in a package.

Why not come out of your house with an apple, or a banana? That is all a child needs, they do not need a packet of crisps, they do not need a bar of chocolate and no they do not need a blooming mini-chino from the coffee shop. These should be treats, only once in a while, and only after eating a healthy lunch or dinner.

It infuriates me and I cannot help but feel very sorry for these children who will grow into fat adults through no fault of their own. How can we stop this trend?

A min chino is only frothy milk. I don't think that's particularly bed

Evil, evil hot milk.

I think she was saying that there is no support available for people with obesity issues. I don't think she was demanding surgery. Just a bit of support with a clinic.
I am obese and I am an emotional eater. I seem to lose self control when feeling unhappy or depressed.
I have tried asking for help on Nhs and all they had was a 2 wedkly meeting and weigh in with hca. Seems like I was lucky to even get that.

Wish I could get free gym membership from gp's. This type of support is just not available nationally. Yes sstop smoking services are.

Yes of course! It's so easy! I had never thought of/tried to take responsibility for my obesity! Of course I actually like being fat, ridiculed, feeling uncomfortable, breathless, etc!

My sister had aneroxia when I was a teenager. She is now a size 10 and I am much bigger sadly. However her diet is less healthy than mine and she has lost most of her own teeth due to bulliminia so all eating disorders are unhealthy.

Yes and stone them too, those stupid fat people

Kewcumber you rock

Personally I don't think we should fund all those smokers aids under the nhs, nor the alcoholics tools
An addiction is an addiction but currently fatties are the target ....

Kew has it spot on, I'm ashamed of having had a gastric bypass, I've lost 8.5 stone, it's not easy, it's bloody hard. It's an easy way to lose weight but it is not easy in any way.
There's a huge public misconception about bariatric surgery, most nhs ops are bypasses or sleeves etc, few bands but the press can't tell the difference.

O yes. That old chestnut. If you are fat you automatically feed your children crap and they will be fat too. Well my 3 dc are all within normal bmi ranges thank you.

missy, I too don't like being fat, breathless, uncomfortable, judged etc. However, it's up to me to do something about it, rather than someone else telling me to do something about it.

If I choose not to make the changes, then the consequence for me is to continue being fat, breathless, uncomfortable, judged etc, etc.

high that's a good point you make. Slim people can eat rubbish and are not challenged.

QOD, wow that's over 100lbs lost! A bypass is for life isn't it, it can't be reversed? Has it forced you to make changes to your eating habits and how do you manage? Do you ever regret having it? Do you recommend it as a weight loss option?

Medical issues and mental health issues aside, I agree with the OP.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of overweight people have these issues compared to those who just lack willpower or motivation.

So you blame people Bunbaker, where does that get you?

Do you not feel any responsibility lies with the food industry, fitness industry and governments for sending out completely mixed messages, with little conclusive research to back them up.

Added to this, IMO lacking willpower or motivation is just as much of a problem as physiology. However it can be expected to some extent, when there isn't a straightforward, completely reliable fix which works for everyone.

Is this really about saving money for the NHS? If so, there would be far better places to start...

The 40 per cent of A&E admissions that are alcohol-related
The money spent on NHS homeopathic hospitals, when homeopathy hasn't even been shown to work
£1.4 billion on redundancy packages. Making 2000 people redundant and then re-hiring them
29 per cent of hospital beds filled by patients who could be treated elsewhere, due to inefficiency
£229 billion on
£2 billion a year on preventable conditions, e.g. pressure ulcers on wards
£1b a year wasted on inefficiency in ordering equipment and supplies. According to the National Audit Office, health bodies waste up to £500m on obtaining basic provisions, with one hospital buying 177 different types of surgical glove.
Billions of pounds on IT records project
Non-attendance at GP appointments, up to 11% in some surgeries

£229 billion on PFI deals where the state must pay expensive interest for decades, for private firms building new hospitals

I think you misunderstood my post about the evil evil chino frothy milk.
My point is that if a child grows up thinking that having unhealthy treats all the time is the norm, they will grow into adults that snack on unhealthy foods all the time, this is their reality.

Therefore if a 2/3/4 year old is given a mini chino and a muffin all the time, they will grow up visiting these darn coffee shops all the time and stuffing them selves with rich mochas, lattes and muffins.

Tabby - yes for life, yes absolutely changed everything. I have a starter if I go out and eat off a side plate at home. I also get random episodes of dumping, shakes, sweats, shits and shivers. It may be because I ate 2 Jaffa cakes, it may be a cup of tea with a sweetener it might be because a twat nurse in hospital gave me a high sugar shake ... It's a wonderful life long tool. When you have a stupid amount of weight to lose, an awful lot of people just can't do it.
I had a bmi of 50 which was what qualified me, I was fit and active, working, walking, living life, dodgy knee from falling down the stairs that couldn't get better due to weight. Yes I ate a lot but also have PCOS and an under active thyroid. I could diet and lose 2 or 3 stone easy as you like, but then it would stop, keep trying, get pissed of, put it on plus a couple of pounds and so on.
I don't agree with it for those in their 20's down. I was fat for over 20 yrs, I appreciate my tool. On my support group there are a fair few young 'uns who just had noooo frigging idea what was going to happen. They've found it impossibly hard to cope, a bit like the diabetic denial some teens go through. Seeking ways to "when can I eat a KFC?" That sort of thing.

I am coming up to 3 years post op and have not put an ounce back on, I'm a sold fat tummied 12/14, I run 15 miles a week and work and live well but at my stage, it's about control. In theory, I can eat what I like, the intestine is super sensitive to sugar and fat in the first year so that if you eat the wrong thing (I'm talkin to you nhs nurse bitch) with too much sugar or fat, you'll be I'll. as the intestine sort of hardens up again (de sensitises?) you can eat normal stuff, but small amounts.

Sorry to be boring.

I run with a group and they mostly had huge prejudices against obesity surgery, but having met me and seen that it's not an easy fix, they've mostly changed their minds.

Those huge folk stuck in wheelchairs who just cannot excercise and get moving, they need this help too.

Hi Qod, Has the weight loss helped with your PCOS and under active thyroid?

Thanks,

M

No Molly, no change! But they are conditions that make it harder for you to shift excess weight.
Still got a beard and still infertile

I think it's unfair to say all obese people can help it. Some really do have mental health issues and use eating as a comfort when they are down. For me, it's opposite, when I am stressed/sad I don't want to eat so I can imagine it's quite common to use nice food as a comfort. Of course there are some that are just lazy, but that attitude applies to the smoking pregnant woman or people who drink lots and end up with liver disease. Some people don't even realise they are as big as they think. We all focus on how women over see their size but actually I know a woman who is 5'2 and 13 and a half stone (big for her height) and tells everyone she is a size 16. She may well wear size 16's but she is always spilling out of clothes and she doesn't want to admit it. If someone is looking very thin people don't think twice about saying, "Ooh don't you look unwell/ill/thin?" sometimes people do need a bit of a budge to I think. I have never been big but got to a size 14 before at 5'5 and was glad my Dad said to me that I'd put on a few lbs as I just kinda got lazy being in a relationship and let my weight slip.

There's a way to be kind to someone to that might need a push without staring at larger people and embarassing them. To the lady who ate at kfc and was laughed at, I hope you put in a complaint about them! I do honestly think hardly anyone chooses to be that big, would YOU want to? There's so much fat shaming about now it's quite sad.