So fed up with DP's ridiculous arguments!

[MsPuddleDuck]

NC for this. I am so, so fucking fucked off this morning after another argument with DP.

Over breakfast I reminded him (in a nice chatty way, just everyday stuff) we had to take something in for school fair hampers and he has various unopened bottles of whisky around (to do with a work project, we could never even get through them) so could he choose one to donate and take in. We have previously discussed and agreed on this. He takes DS to school so I explain the box for donations is in the classroom and can he take it in (otherwise we are entrusting very scatty, forgetful DS with a litre of spirits which might not even find its way out of his bag and end up being accessed by other DC - methinks it's better to get it directly to the box. AIBU about that as well out of interest.)

DP immediately kicked off that he can't go into the classroom because "the flow of kids going in is too much and I wouldn't be able to get through". This is bollocks, DS's classroom is just through the entrance door, and I and other parents go in regularly to do reading help with no prob whatsoever. It's just that DP has an aversion to going into school or talking to the teacher, which causes a lot of problems as anytime someone has to drop something off or speak to the teacher he kicks off, or I have to swap with him and he has to do nursery run (causing logistical probs to do with car) etc etc.

I argued with this for a bit saying of course he can go in, I do it all the time etc etc but he decides to put the whisky in a carrier bag and make DS take it. I dropped it as I didn't want a row and things calmed down.

10 mins later he remarks that DS has been doing well with new homework set by learning support teacher, who we saw at a recent meeting (he did go into school for this, so it's not that he's desperately phobic or anything). It suddenly popped into my head that we have stopped communicating with LS teacher using notes, as she has asked us to do, since we had a slight change of routine and DP now supervises homework instead of me. He never sends any notes so I said "Oh could you write Mrs X a little note then to say it's going OK".

He immediately kicks off! "Oh don't be silly, why does she need a note, obviously the homework is being done blah blah" I explained that I used to do this regularly and Mrs X asks us to do it and it is just a way of keeping in touch. More kicking off and arguing, claiming he "can't write a note because I don't know what to put". I was getting really wound up by this point and pointed out he's a bloody professor, an education professional of 20 years standing who deals with students and staff all the time and is in charge of vast amounts of routine communications so there is no way he can't do this.

Then he switches to huge huffy mode and snaps "RIGHT then! I WILL write a note!" and starts angrily scribbling on a post-it. By now it is a full-scale row with shouting :( and once he gets going he also starts denying what went on earlier in the argument e.g. "I never said I wouldn't do it!" Also I didn't want the shitty note written in anger to go to Mrs X, so I told him that, cue more stropping.

I hate this. We had a similar row at the weekend and after that I SWORE I would NOT shout in front of the DC no matter how much he wound me up. But I've done it again. I did apologise to both DC and assured DS it was completely our fault and we would sort out the Mrs X communications soon.

The thing is, before you tell me to LTB (and believe me today I very much fancy the idea of not living with him), and I know everyone says this, but he is OK generally. He's supportive, he shows no general signs of EA like trying to control what I do or who I see, he's not critical, he's not violent, he doesn't mess me around. We do get on, love each other (AFAIK!), and have a lot in common. He does a lot of housework and childcare (admittedly I have had to push to get him to understand how much needs doing, but he rises to the challenge) and he is able to make changes to himself. He willingly admits he's naturally lazy and would happily take a back seat while I do everything, but as he knows I won't accept that, he does do his share.

So why this crappy rubbish arguing when I ask him to do something? The thing that drives me INSANE the most is that he talks utter nonsense. He just makes up barefaced lies as excuses for why he can't do something - "I can't get through the flow of children" - wtaf? He then also lies to my face about what he just said 30 seconds ago.

It makes me so fucking cross and then what should have been a simple reminder or discussion turns into shouting. I know it takes two but I don't know how to handle it. It's like the only other option if I'm not going to argue, is just take all the bollocks lying down and go along with his ludicrous claims and excuses. He's always been like this and most of our arguments are not really about anything, they're just about the argument itself IYSWIM why he said this and I said that etc.

Invariably, he will later say he was wrong and apologise (which is something I suppose), but god forbid I try to remind him of this during an argument, he just fights back more.

Sorry this is so long, thanks if you read it. I think it has helped me calm down just to get it out.

Caruthers, communicating to somebody the details of a task is not haranguing.

Ah the poor men. If only we could go back to the 50's when a man passed from his mother to his wife at the appropriate age, and onwards to his secretary when the wife got too boring, without ever having to worry his pretty little head about his laundry, his children or wiping his own ass.

Halcyon days...

I did shout in front of my DC, so did DP. I feel bad about it and I apologised. I know it's not good.

Who shouted first? It kind of escalates.

Me: ask/remind calmly and normally.
Him: object blusteringly and indignantly
Me: argue back in a normal voice.
Him: argue back more heatedly
Me: argue back loudly and exasperatedly.
Him: ditto.

After 6-7 exchanges we both have raised voices and are pissed off, but no one suddenly shouts out of nowhere IYSWIM.

I certainly don't think any of it is fun either, but most of the time I would still just give him his tasks and leave him to get on with them.

Of course it was better that a child did not carry a glass bottle full of whisky into school. That should have been a no-brainer, but it wasn't. He should not have argued there. He could have handed it to the teacher as she came to collect her class if he wasn't comfortable going into the classroom, or given it in at reception.

Re the note, it probably came a bit too hot on the heels of the bottle of whisky argument. I only write notes or emails if really necessary due to a problem (does occasionally happen, but I am fortunate there in that I have no special needs to consider.

In general though, expect him to be an adult. Maybe he thinks that if you are going to treat him like a child then he might as well throw his toys out of the pram. Disengage from the situation after the first explanation, as that way he might feel less as if you are trying to micro-manage him and be less reactive. If he is kicking off at the time then leave him to kick off on his own. Chances are he did hear what was required and will get there eventually. If he doesn't then on his head be it. Continuing the discussion will be flung back as "nagging".

Blimey, I sure wish I could follow my own advice myself sometimes!!!

Anyway, is it possible to discuss with him his difficulties with engaging with school/child related matters in a non-confrontational manner?

You may have to accept that he is unlikely to change, but can you negotiate some kind of trade off?

Just state to him - the LS teacher has asked for update notes. I will leave you to explain why they haven't been done.

Walk away, possibly gritting your teeth (or is that just me?). It is no longer your responsibility. You have discharged your obligation by making sure he is aware of the full scope of the task.

"I'm not convinced that sending any particular note will screw up the child's education"

He isn't sending ANY notes.

Because he can't be fucking arsed with it.

It is not "hyperbolic doommongering" to point out that a complete failure by the family to engage with a teacher doing remedial work with a child can damage the child's chances of improvement.

I have been that teacher, and I have seen the children whose parents can't be arsed to co-operate with their child's education, even where a problem has been identified and is being worked on. It's not pretty, believe me.

Ever seen our illiteracy rates? Do you think it's just teachers failing?

Who wouldn't shout if their husband said he literally couldn't get into a classroom? I would shout my head off at that because it's so daft and actually quite insulting (and at the idea that it might be because he has social anxiety - but just the sort of social anxiety that stops him doing boring chores rather than stops him being successful at work).

Agree that the OP needs to find a way where it's clearly his issue to deal with and he then gets to decide how to deal with it. But how to do that if he doesn't actually read the bookbag note or register that it needs doing? At some point she has to tell him that there's a task out there in the world that belongs to him - without appearing to tell him. Should she whisper it into his ear while he's asleep and hope that he subliminally heard and registered it?

Perhaps OP could ask him how he would like to be informed - better for him to step up and inform himself but if he won't, would a big list of chores for each person on a blackboard work better? Or for him to be presented with all the bookbag notes once a week? Or a text message to take away the need for an instant reply? Seems a bit mad that a couple can't actually just exchange a few words on what needs to be done but perhaps he needs to suggest ways he would feel comfortable being told about this stuff. I think actually he is being micromanaged but that's because he's not managing himself - if he was he would already know what needed to be done and would have gone and found the whisky and put it in a bag in the hallway ready to go.

I've only read your posts, MrsPD, so have inferred what everyone else said. I'm not going to offer suggestions about the getting things done & managing family stuff, because I think your DP is very determinedly trying to shoehorn you into 50s housewife mode. That is unacceptable to me and, after trying & failing to change two husbands like that, I wouldn't stand for it these days. There was a lot else wrong with them, though, so the situations aren't the same.

The other thing that stands out from your posts is your own reactions - you've gone as far as promising yourself not to shout, but you do anyway, and I'm sure that leaves you feeling crap. You're kicking off because you feel trapped or helpless, right? Sort of like you're the unstoppable force and he's the immovable object. When you have an unpleasant, repetitive dynamic going on in a relationship, the quickest way to change it is to re-write your half of the script. When you do that, the other party either has to alter their half, or carry on with the old one even though it's not making sense any more (thus looking totally insane!)

I learned to do it with the help of a brilliant therapist, and learned instantly. It was all tried & tested techniques, though; I'm pretty sure you can do it by yourself. Make your 'argue partner' wait while you take a long, slow breath. Count to ten. As soon as you feel that little 'kick' of a button being pressed, deliberately relax your shoulders and wait. Adopt a handy set of helpful defusing statements, like "So you feel ... ", and neutral stalling statements, like "Just a minute ..." Think open, pleasant, neutral, relaxed.

When you're in this type of argument, it can help tremendously to feed back the other person's issues with enumeration. "Let me get this straight: one, you're worried about going into the classroom; two, you're not sure where the box will be; three, you don't like talking to the teacher. Is that correct?"

I'm not saying this will solve the problem because it won't! What it will do is keep you calm, so you don't feel trapped or bad about yourself. It might also have remarkable effects on DP's style, in which case I hope you'll report back

Good luck.

I think actually he is being micromanaged but that's because he's not managing himself

Quite. I have ADHD and sometimes I feel as if DH is constantly nagging and on my back about stuff that I have been asked to do.

The reality, however, is that if he didn't nag me every day for a week to do XYZ I just wouldn't do it. So I can't blame him for nagging - because he cannot be sure that if he doesn't ask me 20 times that I will have done it myself.

I'm pretty sure that the OP does not enjoy having to try and manage him

Garlic thank you, I really want to try this.

She is wise, that garlic :)

Quangle 'and grin at the idea that it might be because he has social anxiety - but just the sort of social anxiety that stops him doing boring chores rather than stops him being successful at work)'

The thing is, I can happily phone someone to talk about quantum physics or herb gardening, but become a gibbering wreck if I have to talk to them about fridge repairs or haircuts.

I'm not sure he's just trying to wriggle out of the boring stuff. I suspect a more nebulous panic about somehow getting it wrong in the Mysterious World of School Stuff, where teachers might come and look at you sternly and make you feel like a naughty 7-yr-old.

Hold on I did get that this guy profession is in EDUCATION ! Even if he is not a teacher as such these are the type if oeoe he is working with everyday.
How on earth can he then be uncomfortable sending a note? About his dc SPECIAL NEEDS?

There are lies if things I am uncomfortable going. I am uncomfortable organizing birthday parties and being responsible of 10+kids for two hours. I am uncomfortable having a child I don't know at my house. And I Annie skwYs comfortable in front if ed psychologist, SENCO etc... But you know what I still do all that.
And so is DH who has Asperger and has every reason to be uncomfortable in such circumstances.

yup. Lots of things are 100% not fun, not interesting, make me uncomfortable. As an adult though, and even more as a parent, you do just have to go through the discomfort....of depositing a bottle of whisky in a basket at school where some 7 year olds might look at you.

pmsl @ your last, Quangle. The thought. A Professor. Being looked at by 7 year olds.

[faints]

I believe that there are men who do things like this unconsciously (traditional tools of the patriarchy, handed down from father to son like handmade chisels) and they can be the angriest and most aggressive when challenged on it because it causes cognitive dissonance with their "new man" self image. He's angry with you for pointing out (perhaps not in so many words) that he thinks only women should have to deal with school admin. He was angry first for being asked to do it, and then angrier when he was forced to confront what a dick he was being.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

It isn't just about doing the task, it is expecting the OP to devote headspace to it and take responsibility for all the planning and organisation. Her DH not only does not and will not think about these things, he won't think about or deal with the consequences either. Presumably because he knows she will step in to prevent her children from suffering. No wonder OP is angry, she's a kind of admin hostage in her own home.

If he won't do any of these things, he'll just have to step up his contribution in other areas to even the workload. Ask him what he suggests, OP.

Yeah, insist that he does more basic housework if you have to do all the plate-spinning.

It's OK to play to both of your strengths preferences, but not if the preference you are catering to is his preference for you to do everything while he does nothing.

Although if he's going to be doing the school run, he's going to have to get over his big fake school phobia and start actually acting like a professional educator who actually works in a great big school.

Could you buy the five birthday presents in one go so you don't have to do five trips to the shop?

Yes toffee I will do that this time as we've amassed all 5 invites and not bought any yet! Normally it would be more likely to happen one by one but this gives me an opportunity to do things efficiently.