So fed up with DP's ridiculous arguments!

[MsPuddleDuck]

NC for this. I am so, so fucking fucked off this morning after another argument with DP.

Over breakfast I reminded him (in a nice chatty way, just everyday stuff) we had to take something in for school fair hampers and he has various unopened bottles of whisky around (to do with a work project, we could never even get through them) so could he choose one to donate and take in. We have previously discussed and agreed on this. He takes DS to school so I explain the box for donations is in the classroom and can he take it in (otherwise we are entrusting very scatty, forgetful DS with a litre of spirits which might not even find its way out of his bag and end up being accessed by other DC - methinks it's better to get it directly to the box. AIBU about that as well out of interest.)

DP immediately kicked off that he can't go into the classroom because "the flow of kids going in is too much and I wouldn't be able to get through". This is bollocks, DS's classroom is just through the entrance door, and I and other parents go in regularly to do reading help with no prob whatsoever. It's just that DP has an aversion to going into school or talking to the teacher, which causes a lot of problems as anytime someone has to drop something off or speak to the teacher he kicks off, or I have to swap with him and he has to do nursery run (causing logistical probs to do with car) etc etc.

I argued with this for a bit saying of course he can go in, I do it all the time etc etc but he decides to put the whisky in a carrier bag and make DS take it. I dropped it as I didn't want a row and things calmed down.

10 mins later he remarks that DS has been doing well with new homework set by learning support teacher, who we saw at a recent meeting (he did go into school for this, so it's not that he's desperately phobic or anything). It suddenly popped into my head that we have stopped communicating with LS teacher using notes, as she has asked us to do, since we had a slight change of routine and DP now supervises homework instead of me. He never sends any notes so I said "Oh could you write Mrs X a little note then to say it's going OK".

He immediately kicks off! "Oh don't be silly, why does she need a note, obviously the homework is being done blah blah" I explained that I used to do this regularly and Mrs X asks us to do it and it is just a way of keeping in touch. More kicking off and arguing, claiming he "can't write a note because I don't know what to put". I was getting really wound up by this point and pointed out he's a bloody professor, an education professional of 20 years standing who deals with students and staff all the time and is in charge of vast amounts of routine communications so there is no way he can't do this.

Then he switches to huge huffy mode and snaps "RIGHT then! I WILL write a note!" and starts angrily scribbling on a post-it. By now it is a full-scale row with shouting :( and once he gets going he also starts denying what went on earlier in the argument e.g. "I never said I wouldn't do it!" Also I didn't want the shitty note written in anger to go to Mrs X, so I told him that, cue more stropping.

I hate this. We had a similar row at the weekend and after that I SWORE I would NOT shout in front of the DC no matter how much he wound me up. But I've done it again. I did apologise to both DC and assured DS it was completely our fault and we would sort out the Mrs X communications soon.

The thing is, before you tell me to LTB (and believe me today I very much fancy the idea of not living with him), and I know everyone says this, but he is OK generally. He's supportive, he shows no general signs of EA like trying to control what I do or who I see, he's not critical, he's not violent, he doesn't mess me around. We do get on, love each other (AFAIK!), and have a lot in common. He does a lot of housework and childcare (admittedly I have had to push to get him to understand how much needs doing, but he rises to the challenge) and he is able to make changes to himself. He willingly admits he's naturally lazy and would happily take a back seat while I do everything, but as he knows I won't accept that, he does do his share.

So why this crappy rubbish arguing when I ask him to do something? The thing that drives me INSANE the most is that he talks utter nonsense. He just makes up barefaced lies as excuses for why he can't do something - "I can't get through the flow of children" - wtaf? He then also lies to my face about what he just said 30 seconds ago.

It makes me so fucking cross and then what should have been a simple reminder or discussion turns into shouting. I know it takes two but I don't know how to handle it. It's like the only other option if I'm not going to argue, is just take all the bollocks lying down and go along with his ludicrous claims and excuses. He's always been like this and most of our arguments are not really about anything, they're just about the argument itself IYSWIM why he said this and I said that etc.

Invariably, he will later say he was wrong and apologise (which is something I suppose), but god forbid I try to remind him of this during an argument, he just fights back more.

Sorry this is so long, thanks if you read it. I think it has helped me calm down just to get it out.

Kinnane, that's his job, for which he gets paid handsomely, and which he does do well.

I also work. Yet when both of us have finished work, are you saying he should just get to relax and have peace, while I deal with 1001 hassly requests and instructions from school, plus endless household admin, and all the other wifework - managing budget, sorting out birthday presents, kids parties, booking holidays, arranging social engagements etc etc etc?

If I do it all it's not fair. If I don't do it all, if I want to share it equally, I have to nag/remind/instruct whatever. It's very hard do this without micro-managing or being a PITA though I do want to find that balance.

I already do way more than my fair share of it, in fact - this is because I'm better at it and he doesn't actually care if it doesn't get done.

The other solution is to take on all of this wifework yourself, and drop some housework you currently do that impacts directly on him e.g. washing his clothes, ironing. And make it clear why you will no longer be doing that task.

When he says he can't take a bottle in or write a note I wonder if he actually means I don't want to do those things and anyway they ar your jobs.

Hmmm...well, I have a boyfriend- kind of- who has been known to come out with nonsensical arguments.

With us, it would often start with general conversation, and then escalate. I remember one particular argument where we had watched a documentary, and he was insisting that one person interviewed was in a different location to all the other interviewees. He absolutely, clearly wasn't- but every time we rewound the clip he came out with even more ludicrous excuses as to why this wasn't so.

Eventually, this culminated in such a huge row that I gave him his marching orders. We are, now, tentatively getting back together. And talking a lot.

Reasons, as far as I can work out, why he does this: He felt I was "getting" at him. He now acknowledges that I wasn't, at all. He was also undergoing some kind of breakdown, and had all kinds of shit going on that he had completely failed to share with me.

How I dealt with it was to refuse to engage. If an argument is completely nonsensical, there is absolutely no point in pursuing it. But, do sit them down later and stress how unacceptable that behaviour is. And I mean it- to have someone who you share your life with come out with a load of stuff that suggests that they are unable to think rationally is very disturbing.

I do think that I might well have a future with this BF, but have stressed to him that if he's in a bad way in the future, he must talk to me about it, and that venting his stresses by coming out with ridiculous arguments instead will be a deal breaker.

BTW when I said DP does do his share, that relates to housework and childcare. He is good with those - after a lot of me pointing out inequalities. I even feel bad saying that I had to point them out. But if I didn't, I would still be doing all the housework!

I feel for you. It would drive me mad. I had similar stuff with ex-husband (which is one of the reasons he's now an ex). I had to do bills, paperwork, bank statements, grocery shopping (whilst working up to 100 hours a week in the City). All things childcare related. If I didn't do it, we'd end up with debt letters, bailiffs, no childcare and total chaos.

I suppose you could literally take a step back and stop doing any of it, but then the consequences would, no doubt, impact upon you all.

I don't know what the answer is - it was a deal breaker for me. It's utterly unfair.

If it helps at all, we were told that children at dd's school were absolutely NOT ALLOWED (the school put the whole sentence in capitals!) to carry the bottles for the tombola into school - that a parent or carer must do the carrying. So on this issue you are definitely NBU. Of course he can put the bottle in the box.

Btw - dd is in reception but I think this instruction applied up to Y6.

Overall though I don't have the answers I'm afraid - I would probably be able to sort out the details of my own life much better if I did! However, I think he probably needs to control the urge to shout so readily even if he feels you are micro-managing a bit. Perhaps have a sensible talk with him once DC is in bed.

PS - my dh can be a little bit like this in the laziness department at least. He does appear incapable of things like reading the notes in dd's school bag, sorting out her appointments etc.

I'm afraid I do respond by completely ignoring some jobs entirely such as the rubbish/recycling, the gardening, any kind of DIY or maintenance etc. To the point that if DH is late back from work the night when the bins/recycling go out and he forgets to do it later on they will just be left.

OP,
...."...DP does do his share, that relates to housework and childcare....."

I'm at a loss. He sounds perfect to me.

Thanks everyone for your replies - they are all helping me with this including the YABUs and I appreciate it.

I need to focus on work, as I'm freelance and having a quiet day I've been able to take some time off but I didn't expect this to run and run quite so much. So I will check back later.

I have found myself in that situation with stupid arguments and bratty behaviour and have found a phrase which works for me:

"I am not your mother, or your maid. This is on you "

Then I step away from the situation. I will not reduce myself to nagging, begging for help or asking for things to be done more than once.

This was a conclusion I came to in attempting to pack for a night away:
"What are you wearing out?"
"What I'm wearing now"
"what, the jeans you mucked out in?"
"Why not?"
"And on top?"
"this tshirt"
" and tomorrow?"
"Same"
"Ok then, you're going to wear dirty jeans and a day old tshirt?"
"Don't see why not"

At that, I disengaged. I don't find teenagers attractive, didn't even when I was a teenager. I will not endorse that behaviour. So I stopped packing anything that wasn't mine.
15 minutes later clean clothes were found

Disengage OP and leave the consequences to your DH. Hard to do, but might encourage a more adult approach in future.

Well I would leave him responsible of more things. Eg he is the one in charge of communication with your dc teacher. Then you assume he does it and ask him if she has any feedback, how he is progressing, where he is with the learning of sounds/spelling/whatever it is you are working on with your ds. Aka being interested in your scans putting the pressure on your DH to get if right. If he is on education, you can also use his own wording to talk about it. He won't be able to rebute that.

The only way you can stop micromanaging him is by giving the responsibility back to him. It will help both him and you.
Start by little things and then include other ones. Let him try and fail. Let him not do things and suffer from the consequences.
In the case if the homework. It's been done but no liaison with teacher. When you see next time, let him explain how your ds is doing, let him explain why there has been no communication, let him hear from her it has to be done.

He is being lazy and reinforcing his laziness with aggression. I don't know what the solution is because if he is threatening you with "this will be a fight if I don't get my own way", and you are determined not to fight, he will get his own way, every time.

I believe that there are men who do things like this unconsciously (traditional tools of the patriarchy, handed down from father to son like handmade chisels) and they can be the angriest and most aggressive when challenged on it because it causes cognitive dissonance with their "new man" self image. He's angry with you for pointing out (perhaps not in so many words) that he thinks only women should have to deal with school admin. He was angry first for being asked to do it, and then angrier when he was forced to confront what a dick he was being.

I have no idea how this can be solved because fights are unpleasant but so is being manipulated into looking after everything by lazy men

You can't have an argument with just one person

You can. My DH could have a fight with himself in a phone box.

I also try the "disengage" strategy. It's difficult because I can be extremely argumentative and hate "losing" an argument. However, the disengage is effective because then I don't feel as if I lost.

"I am not going to argue with you about this. This is what you need to do". And then refuse to be drawn

Goodness, I don't think anyone would actually say LTB over this!

He sounds infuriating. To be honest though, I don't think there is much you can do about it. He sounds annoying. He was probably annoying five years ago, and he will probably be annoying in five years time. As hard as it is, when he behaves like this, try to summon every vestige of strength you can muster, and rise above it.

He sounds fine in general, pretty decent even, so his 'negative' is that he can be an utter pain in the arse sometimes. Could be worse. A lot worse.

I don't think you are nagging or controlling.

Things need to be done & not in a dangerous or stupid way - so you are reminding him they need to be done & that his way of doing it isn't practical (giving a small child a glass bottle of whiskey fgs). He's then coming out with pointless bullshit & lying & generally acting like a small child. If he acted like an adult in the first place, you wouldn't need to 'remind/organise' would you?!

Also the note for the LST - she has asked for this and he hasn't been doing it. It is rude & if he can manage his job at work he can manage this - he just doesn't want to.

Yes - none of it is life threatening, but sadly a ton of other crap needs doing for kids/the house/life in general and it is NOT 'wifework' so, no, he doesn't get to 'opt out' of it.

But of course... 'poor man' shouldn't be expected to do any of it, should he :( Poor diddums.

^^ Fuck that for a joke.

'I can't walk into the school' can mean several things. You are choosing to interpret it in the most negative way possible. Yes, he might physically be able to do so, but that doesn't mean that it's not awkward, uncomfortable or whatever

Awwww, booohoo. Poor OP's DH. Diddums, he doesn't want to walk in a corridor of children. HE'S A BLOODY GROWN UP. If you choose to have children you surely kind of expect that at some point you will have to take them to school. I cannot believe how many people are making excuses for this bloke !

Life is full of having to do things you don't like. Newsflash, most of just stick a brave face on and get on with it.

Poor man, what a life. I don't mean to sound harsh..... but, home is a place to be at peace - not haggling over silly things

Ah, so the OP should be dealing with all the boring school & home related stuff shouldn't she ! Perish the thought that the education professional might be expected to exchange his thoughts with his son's teacher once in a while. I mean, that's a lot to expect isn't it. Especially after the poor dear has been to work.

Much more appropriate that the OP does it. After all, I doubt her work is as serious or grown up as her DH's. I bet she doesn't bring him a cup of tea either when he gets in.

How are things in Stepford ?

I honestly think if the OP had posted about how her DH insists that she does stuff she's uncomfortable with just because he has decided it is important, but she does not (and which actually doesn't matter), and accuses her of being a liar if she tries to explain anything (which in itself makes it very difficult to explain anything properly), no one would have said. 'Boo hoo. You're an adult. Grow up and do as you're told'.

It sounds like there are issues here. But both parties are at fault and what needs to be addressed is how household tasks are delegated and managed and how they communicate over this.

It sounds very annoying to me TBH. Not so much the particular episode - but if all the stuff that requires thought automatically lands on your plate and you are constantly having to either do it yourself or ask him to do it, that's very draining. Cleaning and childcare is great, but it sounds like he's doing all the stuff where he can "go with the flow" and nothnig that needs planning or keeping tabs on.

Could it work better if you just hand some things over to him completely and just accept that you will do others yourself? E.g. would he take on all the housework if you deal with all the bills and admin? Or e.g. you do school admin and he organises the summer holiday?

I feel a bit guilty because at the moment my OH is doing all this stuff because I am pregnant and sick and just not functioning properly (luckily just starting to get back to being a proper human being again and can start to do more of my share, but he's basically had 3 months of doing everything). But I don't have to ask - he can just see it needs doing and gets on with it.

Under "normal" circumstances we tend to take on some jobs each, rather than splitting everything. So generally he deals with regular bills. I deal with workmen. He does any phoning that needs doing (I hate phoning, even for takeaways!). I tend to talk to neighbours if we need to ask them something. He comes up with ideas for holidays and sorts out diaries/when to go, and then I organise the logistics/sort out bookings etc. Obviously any of this can change if one of us is busy or sick, but generally that's just how things work out if we both play to our strengths and what we like doing (or dislike least!).

If it didn't work that way and I was "responsible" for everything (either by doing it or handing it out to get done) I would get extremely stressed. There must be a better way! He clearly isn't having fun either: can you sit down and have a chat about how pressured this is making you feel. Explain it is not about any individual issue, but more the overall pressure of feeling responsible to make sure all this stuff happens (whether it is him or you who actually does it). Maybe it is worth trying to parcel some of this stuff out in categories as somebody's "primary responsibility" on a more regular basis, and then at least any rows will be about important stuff (bills not getting paid) rather than exactly how or when the individual small jobs get done?

While I agree with arbitrary that there are issues and we need to talk...

ChristmasCareerist and Traininthedistance I want to say thanks for sympathising and making me laugh.

We choose the life we live.

OP...."I also work. Yet when both of us have finished work, are you saying he should just get to relax and have peace, while I deal with 1001 hassly requests and instructions from school, plus endless household admin, and all the other wifework - managing budget, sorting out birthday presents, kids parties, booking holidays, arranging social engagements etc etc etc?...."

school
household admin
managing budget
sorting out birthday presents
kids parties
booking holidays
social engagements

Surely most of these are fun to deal with and (not being harsh hopefully) but,....are there only four in your household.

You might think this sounds like madness, but this is actually the kind of stuff that relationship counselling is really good at addressing. It can help you to really appreciate the others' side and to work out practical solutions so that you communicate properly and get out of what is probably a negative cycle of nagging/fighting/avoiding/nagging...

I'd imagine your aim, OP would be not to be nagging at all and to get there you both need to change how you're doing things. You not feeling responsible for everything all the time would be great for you and him.