So fed up with DP's ridiculous arguments!

[MsPuddleDuck]

NC for this. I am so, so fucking fucked off this morning after another argument with DP.

Over breakfast I reminded him (in a nice chatty way, just everyday stuff) we had to take something in for school fair hampers and he has various unopened bottles of whisky around (to do with a work project, we could never even get through them) so could he choose one to donate and take in. We have previously discussed and agreed on this. He takes DS to school so I explain the box for donations is in the classroom and can he take it in (otherwise we are entrusting very scatty, forgetful DS with a litre of spirits which might not even find its way out of his bag and end up being accessed by other DC - methinks it's better to get it directly to the box. AIBU about that as well out of interest.)

DP immediately kicked off that he can't go into the classroom because "the flow of kids going in is too much and I wouldn't be able to get through". This is bollocks, DS's classroom is just through the entrance door, and I and other parents go in regularly to do reading help with no prob whatsoever. It's just that DP has an aversion to going into school or talking to the teacher, which causes a lot of problems as anytime someone has to drop something off or speak to the teacher he kicks off, or I have to swap with him and he has to do nursery run (causing logistical probs to do with car) etc etc.

I argued with this for a bit saying of course he can go in, I do it all the time etc etc but he decides to put the whisky in a carrier bag and make DS take it. I dropped it as I didn't want a row and things calmed down.

10 mins later he remarks that DS has been doing well with new homework set by learning support teacher, who we saw at a recent meeting (he did go into school for this, so it's not that he's desperately phobic or anything). It suddenly popped into my head that we have stopped communicating with LS teacher using notes, as she has asked us to do, since we had a slight change of routine and DP now supervises homework instead of me. He never sends any notes so I said "Oh could you write Mrs X a little note then to say it's going OK".

He immediately kicks off! "Oh don't be silly, why does she need a note, obviously the homework is being done blah blah" I explained that I used to do this regularly and Mrs X asks us to do it and it is just a way of keeping in touch. More kicking off and arguing, claiming he "can't write a note because I don't know what to put". I was getting really wound up by this point and pointed out he's a bloody professor, an education professional of 20 years standing who deals with students and staff all the time and is in charge of vast amounts of routine communications so there is no way he can't do this.

Then he switches to huge huffy mode and snaps "RIGHT then! I WILL write a note!" and starts angrily scribbling on a post-it. By now it is a full-scale row with shouting :( and once he gets going he also starts denying what went on earlier in the argument e.g. "I never said I wouldn't do it!" Also I didn't want the shitty note written in anger to go to Mrs X, so I told him that, cue more stropping.

I hate this. We had a similar row at the weekend and after that I SWORE I would NOT shout in front of the DC no matter how much he wound me up. But I've done it again. I did apologise to both DC and assured DS it was completely our fault and we would sort out the Mrs X communications soon.

The thing is, before you tell me to LTB (and believe me today I very much fancy the idea of not living with him), and I know everyone says this, but he is OK generally. He's supportive, he shows no general signs of EA like trying to control what I do or who I see, he's not critical, he's not violent, he doesn't mess me around. We do get on, love each other (AFAIK!), and have a lot in common. He does a lot of housework and childcare (admittedly I have had to push to get him to understand how much needs doing, but he rises to the challenge) and he is able to make changes to himself. He willingly admits he's naturally lazy and would happily take a back seat while I do everything, but as he knows I won't accept that, he does do his share.

So why this crappy rubbish arguing when I ask him to do something? The thing that drives me INSANE the most is that he talks utter nonsense. He just makes up barefaced lies as excuses for why he can't do something - "I can't get through the flow of children" - wtaf? He then also lies to my face about what he just said 30 seconds ago.

It makes me so fucking cross and then what should have been a simple reminder or discussion turns into shouting. I know it takes two but I don't know how to handle it. It's like the only other option if I'm not going to argue, is just take all the bollocks lying down and go along with his ludicrous claims and excuses. He's always been like this and most of our arguments are not really about anything, they're just about the argument itself IYSWIM why he said this and I said that etc.

Invariably, he will later say he was wrong and apologise (which is something I suppose), but god forbid I try to remind him of this during an argument, he just fights back more.

Sorry this is so long, thanks if you read it. I think it has helped me calm down just to get it out.

My sympathies OP, DH is exactly like this, complete with ridiculous arguing and crap about how I'm "attacking" or "nagging" him when I make perfectly nice, rational, reasonable requests. And for those who say one should leave him to do it his way, I've tried that and then whatever it is just does not get done. Whether it is mouldy food in a cupboard that he's bought, left and still won't throw ouf no matter how much I remind him, to unopened post or unwritten but v v important emails. I completely agree that ending up doing it oneself is maddening and these men (I see it a lot at work too and it's neatly always men) enact what we call at work "strategic incompetence" in order to eventually have someone else do the stuff they don't want to do or consider beneath them. I don't think micromanaging has anything to do with it. The arguments and bad feeling and doing it badly with bad grace is just a way of making things so bad for you for a reasonable request that eventually you'll stop bothering and result! for him.

DH is a chronic procrastinator, avoider, arguer and overgrown child. Someone at my DH's work (who I have never met) once did us a big favour. I suggested for weeks that DH might want to get them a small thing to thank them. DH didn't bother despite occasional reminders (not nagging). Eventually I bought chocolates, wrapped them with note and put them in the hall by the door for him to take to work. I put them there in August and they were still there in December. Eventually I finally walked with him to work with them to give them to the person as a Christmas present.

It drives me absolutely crazy, this crappy man-toddler stuff.

If you find a solution let me know; I want to know. [despair]

There are several options beyond entrusting the bottle to the child though. The OP's DH could have handed it in a bag to the teacher or the TA when they brought the line in. He could have handed it in to the office. The OP could have dropped the bottle off when she's next at the school.

Similarly, I'm sure the OP's husband is capable of deciding when he needs to write a note to the teacher about the homework. He may make different decisions about this to the OP, but it doesn't make his way 'wrong'. And there is nothing worse than taking on a task and then being told off for doing it your way.

The problem here doesn't sound like it's actually about the bottle or the note writing. It sounds like it's about how the OP and her husband relate to each other! and they need to work out better ways of doing this.

I don't think the OP is micromanaging the note.

"I wouldn't write that" or "Your handwriting is awful" or "don't use that kind of paper" would be micromanaging.

"We haven't communicated with DS's LS recently - could you just write a quick note telling her we think things are going OK?" is communication.

Not writing a note because you think it is only necessary to communicate when there is a problem is misunderstanding the way that kind of system is supposed to work.

Kinnane he does the school run and I do the nursery run for logistical reasons to do with where we both need to end up afterwards (I work at home). We can swap if necessary, and sometimes do but it's a headache.

Yes, he has a problem with school stuff and some kind of social anxiety about it it seems. Yet at work he deals with difficult staff and students, goes to conferences and schmoozes, arbitrates, sorts out disputes, is physically surrounded by crowds of people, and copes. He may feel shy about some situations but he manages, as do I.

All the year 1 children in my DC school carry their bottles in alone....give them a stout carrier bag and hook it over their arm....that's what I do.

If I honestly told my lovely wife how to do something after I had asked he to do it, it wouldn't go well.

The OP is at least trying to understand how she is coming across which is a start.

If you ask someone to do something and then you shout at them for not wanting to do it your way then you're wrong.

Every time you're wrong.

And v interesting to me that you say he's a professor - my colleagues are academics and (mostly male) strategic incompetence is absolutely endemic in academia and you see colleagues throwing toys out of pram like you describe in nearly every meeting so I would suggest there might be an element of him having learnt to do something like this (only in more socially acceptable ways) at work too.

I suspect you are not really listening to him because you've already decided that his reasons are bullshit.

'I can't walk into the school' can mean several things. You are choosing to interpret it in the most negative way possible. Yes, he might physically be able to do so, but that doesn't mean that it's not awkward, uncomfortable or whatever. And, since how the bottle gets there isn't actually all that important (in fact, it's not important if it stays in your house and never gets there), he might not be up for forcing himself through the door and finding the bloody box. That doesn't mean he's lying or that it's bullshit.

Similarly, 'I can't write a note' may will be because he has bugger all to say. I hate writing in that reading record thing because more often than not I have nothing actually to report. Your DH may mean he can't write a note because he has nothing to communicate.

The problem is not that you can't discuss anything with any meaning but that you are getting worked up about about stuff that is utterly meaningless.

Have you tried sitting down with him, when not arguing about specific stuff, and pointing out how he is behaving, and that it is not acceptable?

Either that, or leave him to deal with stuff, and the consequences. He is an adult.

Also, I agree that there were other ways for the bottle to get to school without being handled by a child, but all of these methods could have been used/suggested by the OP's DH.

Why should the OP take the bottle later just because the DH doesn't want to enter the classroom? (Assuming he doesn't suffer from debilitating social anxiety which would be a different problem).

Arbitrary you are right in theory but -

• it has to be today, today is the cut-off (because I didn't remind/nag before, in case he took it upon himself!)

• teacher who does line isn't DS's teacher so it would be asking them to deliver bottle to different classroom from their own.

• DP will equally argue about going to the school office if that's not the correct place because then he will have to explain himself etc etc.

I'm not trying to excuse myself for the arguing, and not that these things matter in themselves. And basically if it's this much hassle we could obviously just not bother donating.

It's just that all these other things I could do, ways I could think of to solve the problem, ways I could take over instead - are all me taking charge, aren't they.

It's like when Chaz said:
"We once missed a flight because of DH's chronic lateness - I made him sort out the new tickets and ring people we were visiting to explain."

On the one hand, great that her DH had to deal with the consequences he caused. OTOH, she had to "make him" to get through to him.

OP,

.."... Yet at work he deals with difficult staff and students, goes to conferences and schmoozes, arbitrates, sorts out disputes, is physically surrounded by crowds of people, and copes."

Poor man, what a life. I don't mean to sound harsh..... but, home is a place to be at peace - not haggling over silly things

Remember that his workplace is a very different context to his children's school. It doesn't matter how he performs at work because everything about the situation is different.

And, if you are forever communicating stuff to people and dealing with what you communicate to them, then writing notes to say nothing just for the sake of writing a note may feel utterly ridiculous.

There's also a difference between a reminder (Oh, we're still supposed to be writing notes about the homework) and an instruction (you need to write a note about the homework). In the first you're letting him exercise his own judgement about when a note is needed, in the second you are just telling him to do it.

Sounds like he has some sort of phobia of school and teachers. It would be better if he admitted it and explained why he feels so scared rather than making up ridiculous excuses.

We all have irrational things like this - DP does live TV and radio without batting an eyelid but freaks out at the thought of calling restaurants and hotels to make bookings. Bizarre.

This might resonate OP!

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/jan/19/healthandwellbeing.features1?view=desktop

The thing is, when somebody finds social contact so difficult that they can't even go in to a classroom or talk to somebody in a school office, that is very debilitating for the rest of the family. It sounds as though your DH has real problems that he needs to address OP. From what you are saying, I think the frustration might be that your DH needs to admit that he has a problem and seek help, not come up with these far fetched excuses.

Merry mouse: you could equally ask 'why should he take the bottle into the classroom because the OP has decided that a bottle must be handed in for the hampers?'

OP: perhaps it doesn't really matter to your DH whether the bottle gets there or not. Would the world stop turning if you didn't hand a bottle in?

Is this "strategic incompetence" a conscious activity or some kind of inherent behaviour exhibited by certain types of (predominantly) males? I have also seen it, experience it & agree it seems to be a phenomena in its own right, rather than just particular circumstances. It's infuriating to deal with, especially if you feel you are the one who is simply trying to get things done. It's all very well trying to let it go but then invariably you are the one who has to pick up the pieces when it goes to shit.

There's a big difference between making your own family late for a flight (and inconveniencing people you are staying with) and donating a bottle to the PTA.

I can't walk into the school is a whole world away from I don't want to walk into the school.

He didn't want to write the note, he didn't want to go into the school.

As for dealing with the consequences, personally I think its preferable to micromanage/nag whatever you want to call it, than to, for example sit down at parents evening and be asked by the teacher/assistant why there aren't any notes from you in the book and you turn round and say I told him to do it but he refused because he didn't want to.

And yes I did say that last bit with a whiney voice.

idlevice - No. If you let it go, you let him deal with the mess when things go to shit.

My mum actually did this. My father kept refusing to deal with financial issues - they have separate bank accounts. In the end, she just left him to it, including telling debt collectors who called, that she knew nothing about her DP's finances. He had to sort it out himself.

Even if you are micro managing him there is no excuse for him shouting at you and lying about what has been said. The parent who doesn't do the school/chid stuff every day does need reminding about what needs doing. Do not get into doing everything just so his lordship doesn't have to get off his arse. And as for would be happy to let you do everything .

The bottle needs to be handed in for the hamper because the family is part of the school community. This is how primary schools work. Would he rather man a stall at the school fete or help out with reading in class?

However, the problem does not seem to be that he has an issue with giving the school the bottle. The issue is that going into school seems to be such a problem for him that he makes up an excuse about not being able to get through the door to the classroom.

Most people, if given this information by their spouse would just say "fine" and put the bottle in the box.