To think that as pre school is not compulsory...

[cantsleep]

That it should not matter if dd is late every day ?

My other dcs get to actual school on time but due to various health problems and the fact I don't drive dd is always about half an hour late.

I've explained time and time again to the pre school that iam doing my best but I got a letter today regarding a meeting they'd had citing one of the main problems as being that dd is late each day.

I get up at 6 am each day and get myself ready, then it takes over an hour to get dd1 up and sometimes ds1 needs help too as both have to do physio each morning. Dd2 and ds2 are only little and need to be dressed etc and dd2 has significant health needs. We get the oldest two to school on time but by then I'm already exhausted and usually have my breakfast and a cup of tea and then get dcs ready to walk down to pre school.

Dd hates it so screams and takes shoes off numerous times etc and it just takes ages as I'm tired.

I just feel that given the circumstances the pre school should just accept that we will never be on time rather than make such a big issue out of half an hour. Rather than putting pressure on me I would like them to just make the best of the situation and accomodate the fact that dd arrives at a different time.

AIBU?

Two things - it's concerning that they don't seem vigilant and seem determined not to make any allowances for DDs needs. Very odd and officious and lacking in empathy.

Secondly pre school isn't compulsory and is mostly free play. Its not like school. You are coping really well considering what you have to deal with. Taking care of yourself (having a quick rest/breakfast) is important. If that small thing helps you cope, just do it.

Can you give the staff a stash of haribo in small packets to store. If the cakes are bought out, he can have his own treat.

It wasn't chocolate milk just to be difficult, we tried the normal one and ds didn't like it and we were desperate for him to have some sort of milk so tried the chocolate one which he loved. Sometimes he chose water, other times soya milk.

Two things - it's concerning that they don't seem vigilant and seem determined not to make any allowances for DDs needs. Very odd and officious and lacking in empathy.

Secondly pre school isn't compulsory and is mostly free play. Its not like school. You are coping really well considering what you have to deal with. Taking care of yourself (having a quick rest/breakfast) is important. If that small thing helps you cope, just do it.

Tried that but they said no haribo allowed at pre school, something to do with pork gelatine.

Ok, so there are kosher Haribo you can buy. One of my student's parents know where. I'll aSk her for you if you like?

Thankyou that would be helpful.

They are being unreasonable and discriminatory.
I don't believe their inclusion policies would support their inflexibility.
I would use the December meeting as a way of getting them to sort themselves out. Maybe have a chat with your HV. Portage usually stops at 3 yo sadly, but someone might be able to do a short piece of work with your dd as they haven't been involved before.
If it's a stress in the meantime. Maybe Either have them agree to an earlier start (with you being there) or just keep her home on days you can't manage it. As you say, it's not compulsory. Be kind to yourself.

The vanilla soya milk just looks like it's plain milk. You could try that. DS's nursery were very good and always had dairy free chocolate buttons to give him if the others were getting cake although they banned birthday cakes altogether eventually.

Part of the problem from the pre schools POV could be that your dd is missing out on circle time or whatever by being there late.

They might be in a position where they genuinely can't be flexible without it being detrimental to the whole group, and that goes beyond reasonable adjustment.

In the pre school I used to work in we very much did free flow, but there was still some kind of structure to the session. A child arriving late would have missed the bit where we talk about the date and do a register and that kind of thing. It was only five minutes sitting, and children weren't forced to do it, but if they were never there then they would never have the opportunity to participate in that part of the day, which was one of the things that really does make a difference to children settling at school.

A distressed child who then arrives after that is not only missing out on a learning opportunity, they are also taking a member of staff away from other children who are engaged in an activity and who need adult support to get the most from it.

In my experience, it's really not as simple as just 'making an exception' because making that exception has detrimental consequences both to the child that is late and the others.

I have seen plenty of children become unsettled because of another child being distressed, and because of parents turning up in the middle of the session. It does happen, and it's really not fair on those very small children to dismiss it as if it is unimportant.

I think we need more information from the pre school about exactly why they find it disruptive. They may well have a valid point, but depending on how they structure their sessions, they may not.

It does sound like they are not being helpful in ways that they could be. The milk thing is one of those issues that there are ways round if they want to be creative. So is the issue with the biscuits. They should be making more effort in those departments. In this case it sounds like both the nursery and the parent need to compromise, for the benefit of all the children, but that means give and take on both sides, not just a blanket insistence that the pre school staff have to do what the parent wants.

Maybe agreeing a time, albeit a late one would work. And if OPs dd hasn't arrived by a given time, then they can know not to expect her. It could be that the most difficult thing for the pre school is that they don't know what time OP is going to arrive each day which is making it impossible for them to plan properly.

Maybe going to pre school on the flexible day and choosing two other mornings would work better. Many children don't do every day until a term before they start school anyway.

I don't believe for a minute that it is detrimental to other children if one child is late and I doubt that it has much of an effect on the late child. I don't think it will do a child any harm to miss the register or the bit where they talk about the date either.

The pre school are just being difficult because it is inconvenient for them to have a child with diabetes. They need to get a grip and stop being so inflexible.

Settings vary greatly, as do the children within them.

What might be a minor issue in one setting might be a major issue in another, with both of them being excellent settings that just do thing differently.

I don't think any of us can say for certain whether it would or wouldn't be a problem for this setting unless we work there.

And I strongly disagree that missing circle time won't have much effect. Whether it does or it doesn't depends on the input a child gets at home, and I'd have said that a child who has a very busy home life dealing with their own issues as well as those of two siblings and a baby needs it more than most.

Sorry WooWooOwl, but that is just not right.

As an example, my ds has every right to attend preschool, he needs to attend preschool it s beneficial to his development and we needed to build up gradually to him going to primary. He has chronic separation anxiety, and so i attended the first 2 terms with him, we then had short periods of me leaving, on these sessions we would arrive late, I would leave him, he would scream for the entire time i was away and when i arrived back he would collapse asleep on my lap so we would leave early. He missed circle time altogether.

We have eventually got to a point where I drop off a little after the time all the other children arrive, he will scream the place down, but now settles down after a few minutes, and last week for the first time ever he lasted a whole session, although had to sit out circle time in the book corner.

This has all happened very slowly, and with lots of discussions with the preschool staff, who have made lots of adjustments to suit ds. Children have to learn that not everyone can do the same things that they do, that a child may need a special chair or a certain drink (there is in fact a little boy there who has a carton of chocolate soya milk - no fuss from anyone), or that some children can't cope with sitting on the mat, or that some children may scream in certain circumstances. The preschool have to work out ways to help support these children, as well as all the other children. It is called inclusion.

It probably is a problem for the staff if a child arrives late but they need to deal with it as by law they have to make reasonable adjustments for children with chronic health conditions.

As for circle time, what evidence do you have that missing it will have a detrimental effect? My eldest dd went to a private nursery before starting school. Children arrived at various different times and there was no circle time. This did not seem to have dire consequences for dd or any of her nursery friends when she started school many years ago. I think that some pre schools are a bit precious about this kind of thing. The main point of pre school is surely that the child can socialise with other children before starting school?

I agree that a child arriving late wont be detrimental to the others there.

Some preschools are filled with their own self importance but forget preschool ing is not compulsory. Educational welfare officers won't be knocking on a 3 year olds door!

I agree with Mrs Devere.

I think when you have the meeting with pre-school it might be helpful to have your hv or advisory teacher for the pre-school with you (would parent partnership help?). I would focus on finding a way to help dd2 into pre-school, such as having a member of staff available at a set time you agree she starts. Could this be part of her care plan?

You might want to repost on sn boards as more specialist knowledge.

cantsleep I have a child with sn who started pre-school with no support, despite not walking & only communicating with signs. I am completely with you about pre-school "not getting it". I think some posters on here are not getting it too. You and your dd are entitled to more support and compassion from pre-school.

I think the point about the op having breakfast is misleading as doesn't she sort out her dds blood sugar too.

Our pre-school now gets it and dd2 is thriving. We also arrive later as pre-school changed its start times from 9:15 to 9am and I cannot get from dd1's school to pre-school in that time. They are fine about it.

Dd2 has her own drink, diluted juice (under orders of paed) too. I was very clear that when she started she couldn't manage an open cup and and needed diluted juice for bowel problems.

Pre-school need to see you are not being difficult, but they have to accomodate the needs of your child.

As for circle time, what evidence do you have that missing it will have a detrimental effect?

I don't have evidence, but I have enough common sense to realise that if circle time is the only time a child will ever be spoken to about what day it is or that months even exist, then if they don't have that then they are going to be at a disadvantage to their peers when they start school.

This sort of thing may or may not be relevant to the OP, it depends on how much of that sort of thing she does at home on whether its going to make a difference to her child or not.

Like I've already said, different settings operate in different ways, and what is irrelevant in one might not be relevant in another.

Obviously, I agree that the nursery need to be flexible enough to meets the needs of the OPs dd. There is no question about that. But there may be more than one way of accommodating that.

It seems to me that in this situation, the ideal would be that OP is allowed to arrive at the children centre early and use the kitchen facilities there. A reasonable adjustment could also be that a member of staff is made available early to do the BG check with OP so that less of a handover is needed, and OPs dd would be ready to start the session with everyone else. Something like this could be more inconvenient for them than a crying child arriving late and then needing a handover because they might not currently have the staff available to accommodate it, but if it would work for both the setting and the parent then they should be doing everything possible to make it happen.

There needs to be give and take on both sides, and there is often more than one way of solving a problem. So the OP needs to have a meeting with the staff and be open to their suggestions, as well as ensuring that they are open to hers and are listening to her.

Reasonable adjustment doesn't mean that the parent gets to dictate stuff to suit them if it's not of any direct benefit to the child.

Flexibility and offering different solutions. That's where a sn advisor for the pre-school would help. They have experience of lots of settings & can advise with funding too.

Definitely worth looking at help with transport for older dcs, that might release burden on you.

I don't have evidence, but I have enough common sense to realise that if circle time is the only time a child will ever be spoken to about what day it is or that months even exist, then if they don't have that then they are going to be at a disadvantage to their peers when they start school. This sort of thing may or may not be relevant to the OP, it depends on how much of that sort of thing she does at home on whether its going to make a difference to her child or not.

Exactly, it may not be at all relevant to the OP's child. For many (probably most) the main point of pre school is that they socialise with other children away from their parents. It is ridiculous to suggest to the OP keeps her dd at home rather than miss registration and "circle time".

Agree with Mrs DV
How did it go today OP? did you talk to them?

Mine used to do it first thing after the parents left without any problems. In fact, it worked well as a short time to do registration, and gave children time to settle without any hustle and bustle.

Either way, it was just a suggestion that OPs dd might be missing out on something that happens first thing, which she might well be.

What is your DH doing to help in the morning??