To expect the school to do something about ds being laughed at for wearing a Hello Kitty onsie?

[lecce]

He is 4 and wore it yesterday for Children in Need. The bloody thing is mainly white, and, for that reason mainly, I had tried to steer him in the direction of others, but he was adamant that was the one he wanted. He already has a plain pink lunchbox and pink Peppa Pig wellies and tells me he has had the odd comment about these being 'for girls', but he insists he doesn't mind. He is very shy but tells me he has told these children, 'Pink isn't just for girls!', though I do find it hard to imagine him saying this to a child he doesn't know well.

This morning he tells me that yesterday a few children laughed at him so he took off the onsie and spent most of the day in pyjamas. He had no dressing gown or slippers, as the onsie had covered feet, and tells me he was cold. He had to put the onsie back on to play out at lunchtime and more children laughed at him then. He has named two children from his class as being the main laughers when he was inside the school. He is 4, ffs. Why can't he wear what he likes? However, he does not really seem upset as such, and he says he didn't tell the teacher what was going on.

I am annoyed because the teachers didn't seem to be aware of what was going on. I know they can't help it if he doesn't tell them, but they should have been aware, imo, if the comments were enough to make him want to take it off. He is very happy with his wellies and lunchbox, so I feel there must have been quite a lot of comments this time. I teach in a secondary school and, of course, sometimes things like this go on without the teacher being aware, but I am sure 4 yr olds are a lot less subtle than teens! Also, I would expect a parent to bring something like this to my attention if I didn't notice it myself.

I am also a bit annoyed, though less so, that they didn't contact dh (they know he is a sahd) to bring in an alternative for him, to save him being cold and having a miserable lunchtime. I just feel that ds has had a bit of a pants day, when it should have been fun and he was so pleased with the onsie, and that I should do something about it.

On a similar topic, ds2 (yr2) tells me he regularly has, what he calls, 'mean comments' about his packed lunches - especially the fruit and Greek yogurt. He is capabale of standing up for himself, but says it's getting 'annoying'. I'm starting to feel this should be addressed too.

Dh thinks I'm being silly, but is starting to come around the more I go on. Tbh, though, I can't rely on him having a quick word with the teacher about this, as he will probably 'forget', so, if we do raise it, it will be me who does so, making it more formal as I will have to make an appointment.

AIBU to think it worth mentioning these issues, and to think that part of the role of primary school is to encourage kindness and tolerance amongst pupils?

Its not "kids being kids" so much as "4 year olds being 4 year olds"

These are very small children indeed.

They laughed, thy didn't form a mob and taunt him.

4 year olds are still engaged in gender labelling, they are still working out what it is to be a girl or a boy, and how this applies to themselves. Their thinking is simplistic because of their developmental age and stage. Dredging up the dim memories of a child psychology module I did through the OU about 15 years ago, I believe that it is a normal developmental stage for children to associate social norms of gender, for example colours and toys, with identity at least as strongly as genitalia at age 3-4, starting to move on to a slightly more sophisticated understanding from about 5-6.

The 4 year old ness of the children in question is key, and is the reason I would have side-stepped the issue on a "special" dressing up day at school, by diverting the child from the costume which has a strong association with female gender identity. Just because the child is 4 and so are his peers...

I really don't think this is the same world as teens or even 10 year olds, nor is it a parallel with racism or homophobia, because children's concepts of identity are very fluid at 4, and they think in absolutes because most of them aren't yet sophisticated not to. But mainly because a 4 year old isn't usually mature enough to shrug off teasing just because their mum or teacher tells them the teasers are "stupid" or "dim" as others have suggested (and that in itself is a whole separate and rather enormous can of worms )

children of that age are still learning about their world. Theyre learning about their own identities. Part of these identities are their gender identities. Unless you live under a rock, you will know, that rightly or wrongly, this is a massive deal. Its bloody everywhere.
Small children are also really into identifying what is normal and what is out of the ordinary. Therefore you will get small children saying look at that big fat man. Look theres a boy in girls clothing. Look That dog is wearing a coat. that looks silly.

It is not particularly malicious. Im sure youre very happy for your little boy to wear sparkly pink stuff and for your girl to wear camoflage gear. Would you be completely nonplussed if the headmaster did the same, or would you notice it and maybe make a comment to others about it??

Bullying and teasing in schools and anywhere is horrid. There is certainly a case for toning down our childrens more flamboyant tastes for a public audience, if they are not willing, or able to defend themselves against the unwanted attention. It was a bit of a tall order to expect both other children to be nice about it, and the teacher to have some sort of control over what other children notice

And how will you be explaining to a four year old that him saying to a boy in pink that pink is for girls is naughty?

I would tell my child (and I have done so, they are 10 & 5 now, but we have been having the convo for years) that people are allowed to wear what they like & it isn't up to us to tell them they are wrong for wearing it.

Pretty much because my girls were always allowed to wear what they liked (both have had Thomas clothes, for example) & that they wouldn't like it if others told them they shouldn't be wearing something. Do unto others & all that!

If it is taught from a young age, it is not an issue. They just accept that people wear what they wear.

i would assume when your son says "pink is for girls" noble that you correct him?

my ds4(5) says the same despite our best efforts but we always correct him. and tell.him its not nice to single someone out and tell.them what they are doing is wrong. i reinforce the message its ok for everyone to be different and we actively go against stereotypes so dp will wear pink or use the flowery plate and show him its ok.

these stereotypes are part of young children learning 'social rules' they are very kern to 'fit in' but we dont have to perpetuate them. we can explain its wrong and lead by example. by going along with it we tacitally give it our approval and children dont necessarily grow out of these stereotyped ideas, esp not when it is reinforced constantly by thr media and advertising.

"And how will you be explaining to a four year old that him saying to a boy in pink that pink is for girls is naughty?"

I teach my daughter not that it is naughty, but that it is a silly thing to say because it's obviously not true (and point out all the examples she knows to back up the point).

Yes, of course I tell him it's not true, I posted upthread in detail about how my DH and I try to counter gender stereotyping. He plays with a pink kitchen! But he still says it.

Because pink is for girls. It shouldn't be, and it doesn't mean that boys can't wear pink. But you can point out counter examples and tell a four year old that people can wear what they like till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't stop that being true. He only has to look at what all his classmates are wearing to know it. He's four and is trying to understand the world by observing it.

I think they could have taken better care of him tbh.

Didn't really need 9 pages - I think TiredDog's posts on P1 sum it up very nicely.

I don't think anyone is suggesting demonising 4yo for pointing out differences is ok. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that saying "pink is for girls" at 4yo is naughty.

What is being said by some, is that where 4yo children are pointing out differences and using that difference to poke fun at the other person that behaviour needs addressing. It doesn't need to be a big drama but a simple "Actually pink isn't just for girls. Anyone can wear it" or where a child is becoming upset by the comments "it's not kind to laugh at X for what he's wearing. There's nothing wrong with wearing pink or anything else if you like it". No big discussions, no blame but just tackling the issue at the time and keeping it low key.

Trying to justify behaviour based in prejudice instead of tackling the real issue of children making fun of each other, which happens all the time and needs dealing with most of the time, is the actions of a fool.

All of you saying that the teasing was wrong, are right.
All of you saying that children should be allowed to wear whatever colours they like are right.
All of you saying that gender-stereotyping clothes, colours, toys and lunchboxes is wrong, are right.

But it is a battle still to be fought and you can't expect one lone four year-old to fight it.

The OP and the rest of us weren't there to fight the battle for him, for whatever reason his teacher was unaware and he had deal with it.

And his parents should have realised that would happen.

So no, don't clear out all his pink stuff. Who cares if he wears pink slippers at home? Carry on re-enforcing that pink is 'just a colour'. But until he has the thick skin or wit to deal with the teasing, don't let him be set up for it outside the home.

I think much of this depends on what we see as teasing.

Is it teasing for one four year old child to say to another 'you're wearing girls clothes' and then having a little giggle about that in the way small children do when they they see something that they perceive to be out if the ordinary?

Because personally, I don't think that is teasing, even though it might make the child it was directed at feel bad.

Inappropriate does not mean teasing.

You can't change the way others behave or what they think, you can only change the way you cope with things you don't like.
There will always be people who are mean or make comments, and I would bet your ds would have had the same whichever school he went to.
You need to work with him and teach him some coping strategies and then if he tells you comments happen again, don't make it into a big deal. The teachers have enough big issues to sort and don't get involved with the little stuff so that kids learn to deal with minor issues themselves.

But generally the stuff that matters at 4 is totally trivial to adults because we have had years to learn the social skills and coping strategies. We are taught this through observation and direct instruction (ie telling children off, reinforcing positive behaviours, addressing negative ones).

To sit back and say things like children have to toughen up and learn to deal with this stuff without providing guidance to all children involved is to ignore the development needs of all the children. Yes we all need to learn how to differentiate between what's really important and what is not, but equally we have to learn to be tolerant of others and that our actions have consequences and that it is not socially acceptable to deliberately hurt others either physically to emotionally.

That said, I do think things are being blown out of proportion a bit and we've got away from the original issue which is whether it is worth the op saying something? IMO, yes it is probably worth a mention to the teacher in passing so she can keep an eye. Is it worth reinforcing that if someone is being very unkind to speak to the teacher? IMO, yes it is, but it is worth pointing out that sometimes people are a bit silly and they are best ignored and you can always talk to mum or dad about anything. Does it matter what the focus of the unwanted attention was? No it doesn't if it upsets the target for that attention.

This and the other thread about the boy who didn't want to wear pyjamas for Children in Need has convinced need what a bloody stupid idea it was.
NannyOgg I think your post sums it up beautifully.

I agree with nannyogg . I also think you may as well go in and speak to the teacher because if your son continues to be an individual it will be the first of many times that you go in for a word . As for the lunch box issue ,what do other kids find strange about yoghurt and fruit ,surely that's usual lunch box fodder.

Let him wear what he likes but make him understand that he will be made fun of and he needs to ignore/make a joke/tell the teacher.

I don't think it is a crusade to let your child play/wear what they want and I don't think you were in any way wrong to let him wear that to school. I think maybe you could speak to the teacher and ask her maybe do a session on stereotypes.

No way would I expect my child to hide parts of his personality so please don't stunt him and make him ashamed of himself.

YANBU. My sons used to have their nails painted and wear mermaid outfits. However I wouldn't have sent him to school as risk of teasing but it does annoy me . I wish it didn't happen, some kids would tease whatever.

There is nothing wrong with your son wanting to wear a pink onesie or in supporting that choice.

To let him make that choice without preparing him for the consequences was irresponsible. As an adult you must have known what would happen, the saying "kids can be so cruel" is common for a reason.

You wouldn't throw him in the sea without teaching him to swim, why would you throw him into a social situation that could hugely damage his confidence without teaching him how to deal with it.

Even four year olds can tell boys clothes from girls clothes. Four year olds aren't in to gender stereo typing like parents are. They just see boys wear that, girls wear this. Confusion and incredulousness made them comment.

He's going to get a darn site worse than this op if he does like to experiment. I'd toughen up a bit. Sad yes. Necessary, yes. He sounds a lovely little boy. It's good to be different, could be the next McQueen!

Baby he's 4. Not 18.

I agree with those who said NannyOgg sums it up perfectly.

I think that TiredDog had really sensible responses on the first page.

Boys do get a hard time for liking "girl things". Much harder than girls who like "boys things".

It's a message society gives them and it's a message society must fight. People who don't conform to societal expectations (especially boys) do get a hard time, get picked on and can end up taking their lives.

As teachers and parents, we have a responsibility to fight this. It's important children know that it does not matter what boys and girls do. And it's not "nice" to pick on children who do such stuff.

Also with NannyOgg who is saying similar.