To expect the school to do something about ds being laughed at for wearing a Hello Kitty onsie?

[lecce]

He is 4 and wore it yesterday for Children in Need. The bloody thing is mainly white, and, for that reason mainly, I had tried to steer him in the direction of others, but he was adamant that was the one he wanted. He already has a plain pink lunchbox and pink Peppa Pig wellies and tells me he has had the odd comment about these being 'for girls', but he insists he doesn't mind. He is very shy but tells me he has told these children, 'Pink isn't just for girls!', though I do find it hard to imagine him saying this to a child he doesn't know well.

This morning he tells me that yesterday a few children laughed at him so he took off the onsie and spent most of the day in pyjamas. He had no dressing gown or slippers, as the onsie had covered feet, and tells me he was cold. He had to put the onsie back on to play out at lunchtime and more children laughed at him then. He has named two children from his class as being the main laughers when he was inside the school. He is 4, ffs. Why can't he wear what he likes? However, he does not really seem upset as such, and he says he didn't tell the teacher what was going on.

I am annoyed because the teachers didn't seem to be aware of what was going on. I know they can't help it if he doesn't tell them, but they should have been aware, imo, if the comments were enough to make him want to take it off. He is very happy with his wellies and lunchbox, so I feel there must have been quite a lot of comments this time. I teach in a secondary school and, of course, sometimes things like this go on without the teacher being aware, but I am sure 4 yr olds are a lot less subtle than teens! Also, I would expect a parent to bring something like this to my attention if I didn't notice it myself.

I am also a bit annoyed, though less so, that they didn't contact dh (they know he is a sahd) to bring in an alternative for him, to save him being cold and having a miserable lunchtime. I just feel that ds has had a bit of a pants day, when it should have been fun and he was so pleased with the onsie, and that I should do something about it.

On a similar topic, ds2 (yr2) tells me he regularly has, what he calls, 'mean comments' about his packed lunches - especially the fruit and Greek yogurt. He is capabale of standing up for himself, but says it's getting 'annoying'. I'm starting to feel this should be addressed too.

Dh thinks I'm being silly, but is starting to come around the more I go on. Tbh, though, I can't rely on him having a quick word with the teacher about this, as he will probably 'forget', so, if we do raise it, it will be me who does so, making it more formal as I will have to make an appointment.

AIBU to think it worth mentioning these issues, and to think that part of the role of primary school is to encourage kindness and tolerance amongst pupils?

Who said 'deal with it on their own'?

Search the page for "deal with it" and you'll see it crops up a lot.

"learn how to deal with it"
"his teacher was unaware and he had deal with it"
"teaching them to deal with it"
"fore warned on how to deal with it"

These are all saying that the child supposedly learn how to "deal with it" by themselves, and not ask for help.

Yes of course attempt to teach skills in how to get rid of people who make fun of you. But often it's not that easy, and teasing continues, regardless of doing all the right things to "deal with it". Children also need to know that they'll be taken seriously if they get to the point of asking for help, and not be told "deal with it" yet again.

There is also a fine line between bullying and teasing. Getting on with others means changing your behaviour in some ways. Someone has just asked DH the secret of us being married all these years and he said 'toleration on both sides'. We have both changed in some ways. A child is constantly changing, they change if they get a sibling, they change if they go to grandma's house, they change if they go to a restaurant, they change if they go to school. In short they fit in to different situations and if they can't fit in they will find life difficult. It is a two way thing, other people are not going to make all the adjusting.
People are expecting a lot of 4 yr olds when adults on MN don't manage it!
At school you would have to listen to another's opinions, you simply couldn't get away with 'sheesh'. The meaning was quite plain, ' you are an idiot, Satin, I can't even be bothered to reply'. If I asked for help and said that I felt bullied I would get a huge denial from most people that it was belittling. It can be worse than any school playground and yet children are supposed to be different!

elskovs at the risk of repeating myself, if you read the thread you,all see that not only are there things teachers can do, there are things they want to do, with regard to talking about diversity, difference and inclusion.
and do you really think it is acceptable to laugh at a child exploring their gender. I hope my children never come across you in RL.

*you'll not you,all

OP YANBU to speak to the school or send about what happened and asking if they do/can do some work with the class on challenging gender stereotypes and bullying.

I was looking for a resource that someone linked to during another discussion about gender but I couldn't find it. But it was for schools and talked about being careful not to constantly use gender to divide the class (good morning girls and boys, girls line up here, boys there, girls collect the sheets, boys move the desks) etc and discussed how both girls and boys could like pink/blue/cars/dolls etc.

I'm sure there are loads of materials like it though. It is a really important thing to tackle, because at 3 and 4 of course its just noticing how the world around them is organised and over generalising when they catergorise people. But these stereotypes are what later bullying is built on, and they can still hurt the feelings of other 4 year olds even if they didn't mean to. I'm not saying they should be given a row about it if they didn't mean to hurt, but they should be educated about not being mean and accepting that boys and girls can like the same things.

I do think that you need to get it in proportion. They were 4 yr old children and a few laughed. No one was bullying. As they mature they will understand these things. As a parent you need to help them be resilient. I would save going into school for important things and not a few children laughing over a costume or yoghurt. Children will tease. Children need to handle it.
You can pop in every time someone says something you don't agree with and you can make sure they are silenced but they are likely to react by giving the child a wide berth and saying nothing to them. As an adult I wouldn't befriend anyone who I was going to have to watch every word in case inadvertantly upset them.
When my son was little he had a particularly lovely of putting things which was logical but not grammatically correct, we loved it and used to use it too. But before he started school I said to him 'now you do know that it is really............ and not..............., don't you? He then had the information but whether he chose to use it or not was up to him. He might have been teased but he had the choice of whether to be teased or not. The same with a costume.
As far as I can see no one bullied, they didn't carry on laughing, they didn't taunt, they didn't gang up. Had the teacher been around I dare say she could have made some common place remark to show they were being silly. I don't think it needs more than that.
You don't go through life without getting your feelings hurt and I'm not sure it is desirable because they will certainly get hurt as an adult and you need to have the resilience to cope. I am not saying that children should be bullied, just that they need to cope with a bit of rough and tumble and teasing, the sort of thing that you get from siblings.
On the name board I sometimes say that parents are setting up children for teasing in the playground and they won't have it that children tease. They do.

Pointing out a difference/ that a boy was wearing what would be considered a girl's onesie, is one thing. Quite normal for 4 yo children really.
But the staff should have been more aware. And either helped diffuse the situation or helped the op's DS out so he didn't have to sit about in his pjs on a cold day.
It's not possible to tell the difference between "normal" teasing and unkindness unless you're actually paying attention to what's going on.

Do people not remember their own school days? Don't they recall teasing? Did they have siblings who were lovely and kind at all times? Human nature doesn't change. There would be no relationship problems, no MIL problems, no friendship problems etc on here if everyone was taught to be kind and caring and non judgemental from the age of 4yrs and carried it on for life. You have to live in the real world and bring your children up that way. I wish that they the women on MN could practice what they preach to 4yr olds and leave off their judgy pants, not be horrible to people in the public eye, not belittle other posters etc BUT it will never happen!

Teenage boys in particular seem to relate to their friends by being horrible to them, like a bonding ritual.

It's not surprising he was teased, that's the real world.

What this raises is the he needs to learn to trust the adults in his world and that means being happy to approach an adult as a when problems happen. It also means the school and the parents need to have a chat to the kids to ensure the kids feel able to do so.

Funnily enough, I've just had this discussing with my 11 year old on an entirely different matter.

The thread has gone to the nutty side again I see :)

The kids involved are 4 years old - four - the little boy wasn't exploring his gender, he was just wearing a onsie with a design designed by clever commercial artists to appeal to small children. He didn't even realise it was going to be seen as "for girls" because he was surprised when other children said it was - he just liked the picture. He was far too innocent and immature (not in a bad way, just in a 4 year old way) to be "exploring gender".

The other kids weren't bullies - they were 4 year olds. Some people still refer to 4 year olds as toddlers. They've only had the concept of gender for a couple of years. They are still refining their understanding of how to decide which gender people are. We cannot avoid assigning gender to people if we are going to use language to refer to people - we need to say "he" or "she" so it is an important part of development to work out which gender to assume. At 4, children use quite crude indicators which are generally social constructs - colour and cartoon characters they have seen associated (whether at home, on TV, or by peers) with a gender are handy markers for a 4 year old.

If we see something "out of place" we have an instinct to laugh. This is used in early childhood comedy all the time - the dog says miaow! Hahhaha! They knew the OP's son to be a boy as he is a classmate. The OP's son was wearing a cartoon character and colour they currently see as a handy marker labelling somebody as a little girl - boy wearing girl clothes - hahaha! if you are FOUR years old it isn't malicious or bullying.

If a teacher is aware of this happening it is a "teachable moment" for a low key conversation about how boys and girls can wear/ like whatever appeals to them personally, so as to perhaps start moving the children's concept of gender on a little - but it most certainly isn't about bullying, and the children at 4, are on average unlikely to be developmentally ready to process adult concepts of flexible gender identity (which isn't even relevant) nor of individuality.

There is a huge amount of adults assigning adult (or older child/ teen) motives to tiny, developmentally entirely appropriately immature, four year olds on the last couple of pages!

I agree with those saying there is a need to keep things in proportion.

4 year olds do snigger etc.

My DS got teased re his Thomas the Tank wellies when 4 .

The op is a world away from kids at 10 being called gay in a derogatory tone for being crap at football(which my 2 have).

There are plenty of resources for tackling gender stereotypes and schools do have a responsibility for teaching and tackling such stuff.

There will always be boys and girls who don't "fit in to the norm". It's much much harder for boys who don't fit in and conform. There will be boys who don't like football, who like pink, who prefer "girl stuff" and who just aren't stereotypical boys.

Life can be very hard for them. Children do tease. That's a fact of life.

So what are the options for a boy like that

Hide what they like so they can fit in and conform?
Do what they want to but expect to be bullied and teased - which means they need a thick skin and good comebacks.
Have a school which teaches diversity, tackles stereotypes etc
Have a society which trys to get rid of gender stereotypes and boy / girl things.

I know what kind of society I would like. Too many children hide away and try to fit in. Trans children hide it away and all too often end up being bullied leading to self harm and suicide.

Orlando what you are saying is true, but at 4 the average child is a year or, more likely 2, off really being able to understand the points you are trying to make.

You can tell a 4 year old that its OK to be different, and read stories and sing songs to illustrate that - that is fine and will start to sink in with the more thoughtful ones.

Children have to get to the point where they can identify gender without the social" props" of colours/ hair length/ cartoon characters/ clothes etc. etc. before you can then teach them that actually it is fine NOT to conform to those stereotypes. That happens around age 5-6 usually, so KS1 - 4 year olds are still Early Years.

I don't think there are any societies without any widely accepted socially constructed markers of gender.

Late to this thread.

I'd like to add that after spending masses of time in Japan, Hello Kitty is also worn by top male business executives ...in the form of a tie sometimes

She is looked upon as a charming character , both sexes like her.

But it doesn't hurt to say that there's nothing wrong with wearing such stuff. I work in schools and have extensive experience in early years as well.

They might not understand but you are making the point about teasing. And that's an important thing to crack down.

Certainly it doesn't hurt Orlando I agree. At the time, and without making a big deal, absolutely it would be appropriate for the teacher to say that, and maybe read a story to illustrate the point that being different is fine/ good, it would be boring if we were all the same etc. etc. but at this age making a big deal of it is inappropriate, bewildering, and ultimately pointless - the children are too young. Simply pointing out its not nice to laugh at people for their choices is enough, and them perhaps the message about it being OK to be different/ that really boys and girls can both like Hello Kitty or Thomas The Tank Engine if they want to.

I just think people getting worked up are forgetting that the children in this particular case are 4, and are assigning motives to both the OP's son, and to his classmates, that are developmentally incredibly unlikely to have actually existed.

That's why I like Elma the Elephant. It's a good story. There are plenty of stories for young children which make the point about diversity without preaching.

What Mr Tumble said.

Also having taught 4 year olds I would say there is a lot of bravado re laughing at things like Thomas wellies. Don't forget they are new to the school and the smallest fish in the pond.

Elma the Elephant - difference is good etc. exactly :) Exploring gender identity at 4 - probably not :)

OP can you just clarify one point please? You say that you had to buy the thing specially as the DC were asked to come in nightwear and you were worried that they might be cold in just pyjamas. But in your first post you said you tried to steer him towards others on the day. Not sure it matters, but did he have a choice of another onesie or not? I suppose I am trying to find out whether the white and pink onesie was wholly his choice or a little bit yours?

Whatever, if he is not bothered and coped with the teasing then good for him! You will gain nothing from complaining.

First i was 'sockpuppeting', now i'm 'nutty'. This thread is a whole new set of firsts for me!
MrTumbles Maybe i am being a bit thick, maybe just naive. However, i recognise that a four year old is not consciously 'exploring his/her gender'. Obviously this is an adult term applied to children’s behaviour (in this case). Maybe exploring gender is too narrow, maybe exploring their identity is closer to the mark.
But i do have problems with your 'nutty' post (as in the post in which you described comments as nutty , not that you're nutty ).
On the one hand you say that children are too immature at this age to be exploring gender identity; rather, they are reacting to cleverly aimed commercial marketing. And yet, you go on to relate that children of this age can recognise 'crude' socially constructed indicators of gender. If then a boy chooses to wear clothing 'crudely' indicative of femininity, is he not then in effect playing with those perceived markers of similarity/difference from which their social reality is constructed. Is this not an exploration of their identity, and in this particular situation, gender identity?
In my wholly unempirical experience of my DS's behaviour, he recognises that the pink fluffy tutu/stripy dress belongs to his sister, but chooses to wear it because it's pretty, or he likes it, or it fulfils some role in his play scenario. I perceive this to be (perhaps incorrectly?) an exploration of his gender identity, as he learns about the world and defines his personality. I expect him to be told by some of his peers that 'that is for girls', but i also expect that they be told by a relevant adult that 'no, you can wear what you like' etc. etc.
I certainly don't think that he should be judged by adults, and that is my biggest problem with this thread.

I wouldn't see a 4 year old trying on a tutu as exploring his gender identity, just playing dress-up. Nuance is totally lost on them. My DS will assert that pink is for girls, but when making fairy cakes decide to make them with pink icing and butterflies because he thinks it will look nice. He doesn't connect the two!

Paleodad I wasn't actually calling you nutty - in fact not only had I not really noticed who posted what, I wasn't referring to one specific post, just the direction the thread had gone in since I last looked - back to screaming "bullying" and talking about a 4 year old's uncomplicated and innocent choice of clothing as if her were a teen or young adult deliberately choosing to wear something that expressed his fluid or distinctly feminine, or consciously undefined/ indefinable or any other gender identity, or to challenge social expectations, or as an act of rebellion or celebration or solidarity or for any other thought through reason...

No I don't think the OP's son was exploring his gender identity because the OP said he was surprised to be told the outfit/ character was "for girls" - it sounds as if he was in blissful ignorance of gender stereotypes, having been unintentionally or intentionally sheltered from them and perhaps just being the type of child who doesn't notice things like that (which is neither good nor bad, just the way some kids - and adults - are).

You can't explore or challenge something you are unaware of, though I agree he was expressing his identity in so far as "I like that, I am drawn to it, so I want to wear it" is an expression of identity - it is, but on a very simple level.

noblegiraffe I agree - 4 year olds are also very good at disassociating or failing to make connections if it doesn't suit them at the time - actually of course we all are, but 4 year olds are very straight forward and uncomplicated about it :)