to be absolutely freaking fuming about breastfeeding vouchers! !!!

[harriet247]

Cannot put into words how annoyed I am,have just switched on the news to be told that the government are considering offering breastfeeding vouchers to new mums.
160 quid in shopping vouchers for the first 6 weeks of the babys life and 200 if you go up to 6 months.
Im a ftm and I had crippling horrible guilt that I couldn't breastfeed. I really wanted to but my milk didnt turn up until 9 days after my baby was born. I think was something to do with 44 hour labour which ended in an emc a few weeks before my due date.
I am just furious, furious that women are being treated like foolish little ladies who need a cash incentive to feed their babies in the way the powers that be say is best.

I agree with mamabear - as a fellow sufferer of primary lactation failure (diagnosed, not in my head) I think money would be better spent on community support during pregnancy and in the early days of motherhood.

Having said that, this is a small-scale trial, so it will be interesting to see the results.

And incidentally, it may only be 1 to 2% of women who fail to lactate, but that actually adds up to a very large number of people in reality - something like 16k women each year. So not that rare really.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10389401/Bribing-patients-is-bad-medicine.html Article by Margaret McCartney on the ethic of 'bribing patients'

It doesn't relate directly to this topic, but it is an interesting read on the wider debate and how increasing this idea of paying to get someone follow public health directives is completely unethical.

The 1-2% of mothers who can't breastfeed statistic doesn't include the number of babies who can't breastfeed, like my DS4. So a physical reason for not being able to breastfeed isn't that rare at all.

I think its bloody disgusting. Its a personal choice. Women should not be bribed into doing something that is 'natural'

I did it for 6 weeks with DS1, quit due to getting mastitas 3 times.
DS2 wouldnt feed from me and DS3 wasnt interested either. I did try, oh god i did try but he just wouldnt stay latched on.

Women shouldnt be bribed.

ellyjjtiny

it also disregards the women who dont bf for medical reasons such as medication and mental health reasons.

while they might physically be able to they may be advised not to or choose not to.

its not one size fits all when it comes to babies AND mothers and lets not forget there are vulnerable mothers out there too

Sorry haven't read the whole thread but saw the title and feel comforted that so many people feel exactly like me.
Words cannot describe how insulted I feel. Why the fuck can't they use this money to properly train HVs and midwives in spotting tongue / lip tie? One fucking woman in the whole of South Wales. I mean, is that really how to support new mothers?
I got so much emotional blackmail to continue with the torture of BF from my HV but absolutely fuck all by way of practical support. I'm quite tearful just thinking about it.
This scheme is just another way to discriminate against the poor sods (myself included) who simply couldn't do it alone.

YABU. Just because some of you failed at bf'ing doesn't mean that other babies should be denied the chance of being bfed. Even if it is because their mothers are being bribed to do it.

I think it's a great idea.

Meanspirited, much Matilda?

Don't be sad stow. This is a small study and the money isn't coming from the main NHS funding. It's also not targeted at people like you. It's targeted at women who wouldn't normally try breastfeeding, in communities with very very low breastfeeding rates. I'm sure if it doesn't result in an increase of breastfeeding in the pilot group then it won't be tried again.

'Just because some of you failed at b'feeding" ?

What an unpleasant comment.

The truth is, children will be 'denied' all sorts of things, depending on the values of the parents raising them. Some children have lots of books read to them, some are given a better diet than others, talked to more....
The bottom line is: provided there isn't actual neglect or abuse, parents are free to make their own decisions.
The concept of paying parents to do something feels completely unethical. Where does it end?
This is similar to those schemes which reward people financially for stopping smoking.

Put money into educating people about what is physically best (just as there is masses of publicity about why smoking is a bad idea) and then let people make their choices.
It's hardly changing someone's mindset if you just bribe then into doing something anyway. When these parents wean their babies, are they going to feel entitled to be bribed to feed their children healthily then too?

Talk about a nanny state... Imagine if we all decided we'd ignore the well publicised messages about our health and our children's health, until we were paid to listen ?

Bubalu - did no one offer to snip your baby's tongue tie? Round here it's done quickly once identified, same day, and women encouraged to breastfeed. Apparently you can feel the difference immediately.

If you have another tongue tied baby seek out help ASAP - it can often be sorted out!

Can I just remind people here who are angry about NHS money being diverted away from breastfeeding support that vastly more money is being spent paying for formula for people who can breastfeed but have chosen not to?

Put money into educating people about what is physically best (just as there is masses of publicity about why smoking is a bad idea) and then let people make their choices

The problem with that is that the formula companies are putting far more money into "educating" people into thinking formula is no different.

Minifingers

Ds is 5 now and they did identify he was tongue tied at birth but they decided not to cut it. I didn't realise at the time what this would mean for bf

I was severely tongue tied and had mine cut in my late teens as I had a tumour develop underneath my tongue.

We are planning on ttc next year for dc2 so I will definitely be checking when he/she is born as I do not want to do that again. My friend has a 6 week old and they cut his tongue for straight away.

Christ matilda you must be really thick to have missed the great big point of this thread.

... And minifingers- many of us are up in arms about money going towards funding formula too.

As for the formula companies trying to do a really good job of marketing- yes of course they will. That's how advertising works. Having said that, there are strict regulations and formula cannot be marketed as 'as good as' bm

To my mind this is somewhat of a parallel to things like smoking, or eating fast food, only the bf campaign is lagging further behind. We all know the health problems with smoking. I defy anyone to claim in the 21st century that they really don't understand that it's bad for you. I reckon in the not too distant future we will reach that point with bf- everyone will know that's its best, cheaper etc. but there will still be a sector of people who choose to not follow the advice (I'm not including here people who cannot bf)

That's life isn't it- freedom of choice

Sorry, I have not RTFT. BUT - what minifingers said at 0647. It's just a trial. You try stuff out and see how well it works. If it doesn't, you don't do it again. It's called science.

Having said that - as I said on the other thread, I'm not sure that directly linking bf with personal, financial reward is overall the right thing to do, for complex reasons concerning how motivation works. But we'll see.

Sounds as if the very first thing they need to note down about this idea is that it is massively controversial!

"YABU. Just because some of you failed at bf'ing doesn't mean that other babies should be denied the chance of being bfed. Even if it is because their mothers are being bribed to do it"

Nice attitude to have towards other Mothers.

Read the entire thread.

I saw this issue on the News late last night and I felt uncomfortable watching it. If I was either a pregnant woman or a new mom I would have found the filming/concept tacky, insulting and patronising

If a mother chooses to breast feed she does it because she knows it is best for the baby and it is something that is important to her. I think this train of the thought is in a woman's mind whether shopping vouchers are on offer or not....

Women who choose not to even try to breast feed (I.e for concerns about what will happen to their breasts, and yes this is very common) are usually pretty set in their views too and I can't see a woman doing something she really doesn't want to for such a long period of time, just because she will get shopping vouchers at the end of it

I have worked with a lot of mothers who desperately wanted to breast feed but it just didn't work for them [for a variety of reasons] and my experience is that they are usually heartbroken by the end result and sometimes (and wrongly) feel like a failure. Watching a devastated mom in tears because she can't breast feed her baby is awful - and I think this even more increased social pressure to breast feed will only make them feel so much worse.

As many other posters have said, what is needed is more antenatal education to try and increase BF rates and then more more support for mothers after the birth to help them continue for as long as they can.

Trouble is, you can go on about formula advertising all you want and sometimes people have a point but the main thing that advertises formula is the hundred of millions of formula fed people walking about perfectly happily. People look at other FF babies/people and think well they're OK... If FF babies were easy to spot or obviously unhealthy but they're not. If you look at many of the target demographic of this study, they will be on the second+ generation of healthy FF babies. When I was a TA I worked in such areas and in childcare when we talked about BF v FF the number one answer was 'but we're all fine, formula can't be that bad' and to be fair they do have a point. The benefits for individual babies, born at full term healthy, are small, often in the studies I've seen a 3-7% or so more chance of developing asthma or eczema say than a BF baby. That would be very hard to notice in a community unless you were seeing many hundreds of babies a day, which most people working out side healthcare don't. It will be an uphill battle I think in these communities.

I work in quite a deprived area and a recent study showed that breast feeding initiation rates in hospital are only 11% and by the time the babies are 6 weeks old only 6% of them are still being breast feed. It's so disheartening.

For those who say that those involved with the study should be ashamed, are you including the women and their families that have chosen to be a part of this study? Should we not consider how they feel about things or is shaming them part of helping them?

The study specifically says it will be looking at how these women (who have now had a media storm dropped on their heads) feel about the incentives. If it's anything like the medical trials I have been a part of, this will include long surveys and discussions that will include all the other issues discussed in this thread and in the media. Getting their perspective from them rather than stats and HCPs is vital to making real change and challenges to the systems.

Personally, I view the money as well worthwhile compensation for the obvious time and energy it will take for these women to deal with the HCPs and work involved being in this study - particularly for women who are far more likely to have faced problems and difficulty with dealing HCPs (after the abuse I suffered with my first, I pretty much never wanted to see one again). This study will likely give great results on the flaws in the system if it's done well and focuses on the barriers these women face and how it can be tackled. The whole paying them to breastfeed is only one small layer of the study, they can't really pay them for their time other than travel costs, this is a way around that and makes a serious statement that financial concerns and poverty are real barriers to making choices and affect people's perceptions and thought processes. I applaud them.

People banging on about education on the benefits - you are aware that pretty much all research shows that doesn't work? Smoking didn't change overnight when they finally admitted it was dangerous, the control and barriers to getting and using cigarettes and their portrayals in the media (and now viable equipment that makes it easier) have far larger roles to play. Recycling gets done better if it is made as clear and simple as possible, people eat better than the systems are put into place to make that food more easily available. We can give all the education we want, without the environment, systems, and power, it's all for nought.

Better support for all would be great, but getting more research that shows how desperately it is needed from women's own mouths is pretty much the key to getting any kind of funding - it has to be shown that easy options like money isn't going to work and that it is really needed to get the coffers open. Really, we should think of what is best for those women who have just had their lives and integrity dragged through the mud and access to a medical research team and a bit of financial autonomy is far better than all the leaflets and browbeating in the land.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread but saw the title and feel comforted that so many people feel exactly like me.
Words cannot describe how insulted I feel. Why the fuck can't they use this money to properly train HVs and midwives in spotting tongue / lip tie? One fucking woman in the whole of South Wales. I mean, is that really how to support new mothers?
I got so much emotional blackmail to continue with the torture of BF from my HV but absolutely fuck all by way of practical support. I'm quite tearful just thinking about it.
This scheme is just another way to discriminate against the poor sods (myself included) who simply couldn't do it alone.

Slowsetter you are describing my experience twice. TT and inverted nipples, nipples torn apart with each tchild which are still badly scarred to this day. Midwives and HV saying giving up was the only answer after the months of the "breast is best" mantra. I was so cross about it.

When I was pregnant the 3rd time my midwife said to me "Are you thinking of breastfeeding?" and I said "well I have tried on both of my other children unsuccessfully" and she said "well maybe you will try harder next time" I fucking exploded with her and told her it was health professionals who were letting me down and telling me to give up and asked who was she to suggest I had not tried hard enough.

As I said upthread it was finding the person who actually knew what they were talking about that got me bf my 3rd but the search was endless which is all you need as the mother of a newborn. 2 years late we are still bf and I have definitely seen the difference so I am even more furious about how inadequate the support is and the damage that a formula culture has done to breastfeeding.

Spork you say "We can give all the education we want, without the environment, systems, and power, it's all for nought. "

Totally correct. And I'd put 'social attitudes' in with that - under the headings environment and power

If it's thought to be a good idea for more babies to be breastfed, then different things have to be tried (and assessed).

People go on about 'but it should be down to personal choice....not bribery!' and of course it is choice...but how much 'choice' does a mother have if any autonomy in feeding decisions is removed by people sneering at her? And people do sneer - loudly and mockingly.

Places where bf is normal and where women who stop because of pain or other challenges feel criticised for ff, are bubbles. Schemes like the one discussed are for areas where breastfeeding is hardly on the radar, and women who do it, even for a short time, have to be strong and feisty and confident enough to ignore the criticism.

You shouldn't have to be strong and feisty and confident in order to breastfeed. You should be able to be weak and watery and shy and still be able to breastfeed!

"Trouble is, you can go on about formula advertising all you want and sometimes people have a point but the main thing that advertises formula is the hundred of millions of formula fed people walking about perfectly happily"

so they really don't need to advertised at all. Nor have any kind of branded packaging. Just plain cartons, on free prescription for those who need it. Sorted.