to be absolutely freaking fuming about breastfeeding vouchers! !!!

[harriet247]

Cannot put into words how annoyed I am,have just switched on the news to be told that the government are considering offering breastfeeding vouchers to new mums.
160 quid in shopping vouchers for the first 6 weeks of the babys life and 200 if you go up to 6 months.
Im a ftm and I had crippling horrible guilt that I couldn't breastfeed. I really wanted to but my milk didnt turn up until 9 days after my baby was born. I think was something to do with 44 hour labour which ended in an emc a few weeks before my due date.
I am just furious, furious that women are being treated like foolish little ladies who need a cash incentive to feed their babies in the way the powers that be say is best.

[Faithless12]

catellington
You're feeding her again? Mine were on a 4 hr schedule from birth
Well you won't be feeding much longer, once she gets to 6 months, I don't think it's right beyond that
Oh it's so easy to go out at night ( in London, an hour train ride away from home) you just express and then someone feeds her with a bottle (at 5 weeks, dd had never had a bottle)

Those comments were the same my MIL came out with, along with a friends mum, both had never breastfed. My MIL's idea of being on a schedule was that she'd let them scream until 4 hrs had gone and then wake them, if necessary, to feed them. TBH, she boasted about some crazy things with her babies that I would never want anyone to know so ignoring her opinion was easier. My friend spurred on by her mother insisted that I should stop feeding at dead on 6 months as we were approaching 6 months she made a big song and dance about how great it'll be now you're stopping.

I think anybody who suggest expressing as an everyday thing should have to be set up with a pump for an 1/2 an hour every hour (you don't have to be lactating to do this) and then they can have an opinion on BF mothers pumping to go out.

Katie Hopkins on this morning yesterday 'you can literally smell the breastmilk when you walk into Costa' (or similar) - actually pretty offensive and I don't think it would be considered acceptable to ridicule ff in that way on national tv or anywhere else.

She's an idiot and I personally think This Morning should have its knuckles rapped for given her airtime. They chose her because they knew she'd come out with something akin to that, instead of encouraging healthy debate they chose an offensive nobody

[puntasticusername]

Geppagip I see what you're saying, but unfortunately it's just an anecdote rather than a meaningful set of data. You just can't draw any useful, statistically significant conclusions from observing a group that small.

[GeppaGip]

What money saving due to better health though? my friends breasy fed two kids cost the nhs a fortune as they're there every other week with horrible illnesses or always have hacking coughs. my trojan horse ff little man has NEVER had to go to the docs once. The health issue ia not obvious in my circle.

[elliejjtiny]

Can I just add - that very few people on this thread seem worried about the fact that the majority of new mothers on benefits will receive upwards of £450 towards formula in their babies' first year of life (despite the fact that the vast majority of these mothers COULD breastfeed), and that there are tens of thousands of women receiving this money every year, compared to just a few hundred mothers on this pilot receiving £200 to incentivise them to breastfeed?

I have yet to hear a chorus of outrage about this.

The vouchers for formula that used to be called milk tokens are now called healthy start vouchers. They can be used to buy formula milk, cows milk or fruit and veg. They are given to all new mums who meet the criteria, regardless of method of feeding.

[Minifingers]

"I think it's a daft idea. I wanted to breast feed and wasn't able to. I'd feel even worse if I then missed out on some money."

This is a tiny pilot study, funded by money totally separate from the NHS maternity budget, which is intended to find out whether a cash incentive might breakdown some barriers to trying breastfeeding AMONG COMMUNITIES WHERE ALMOST NO ONE BREASTFEEDS, NOR HAS DONE FOR GENERATIONS. There are communities like this in the UK, where most women see breastfeeding as something positively odd or unwise.

Can I just add - that very few people on this thread seem worried about the fact that the majority of new mothers on benefits will receive upwards of £450 towards formula in their babies' first year of life (despite the fact that the vast majority of these mothers COULD breastfeed), and that there are tens of thousands of women receiving this money every year, compared to just a few hundred mothers on this pilot receiving £200 to incentivise them to breastfeed?

I have yet to hear a chorus of outrage about this.

[timetogrowup]

I think it's a daft idea. I wanted to breast feed and wasn't able to. I'd feel even worse if I then missed out on some money.

Also I had a colleague who lived on a rough estate and said there were plenty of mums there happy to sell me their state supplied baby forumala. I was horrified but then I wonder what were the babies drinking? I'm hoping it was breast milk and their mum's just on the make. So I feel a bit doubtful about some of the evidence that mum's don't breastfeed.

[puntasticusername]

Exactly! It's not just the money, it's what the money MEANS to people.

[catellington]

Yes - for instance to me I look at this voucher proposal and it's a drop in the ocean. Really the amounts involved wouldn't go anywhere towards delivering any if the very good ideas suggested on this and the other thread on this topic. But people are nonetheless very upset by it.

What this has done though is generated a huge amount of discussion, countless real life stories, and national headlines. All of which is a good thing. There is evidence right here about people's experiences.

[puntasticusername]

catellington ah, yours is an interesting perspective to have then. We often expect people to make rational decisions with their money, but it's amazing how often that doesn't actually happen in practice. Because so many other factors are at work to influence the choices people make.

[catellington]

Aaa argh - when she has her own DC, not DOC!

[catellington]

Ok - I'm not a marketeer can you tell??? my perspective on this issue is as a type of finance 'geek' professionally with knowledge of fiscal policy etc and also personally feel evangelical about bf and want people to get best chance to bf if they want to.

I do think it will probably take a generation for things to change, but that means things will hopefully be better for my dd when she has her own doc and so for that reason I feel really strongly about it.

[puntasticusername]

catellington - informational campaigns, on their own, are generally very ineffective at changing people's behaviour. It doesn't mean that they are pointless, or never well received. Just that changing behaviour is a complex, difficult and multifaceted task, and is still incompletely understood within behavioural science. And you have to beware of unintended consequences and so forth. It's all fun

[catellington]

Ie the comments like

You're feeding her again? Mine were on a 4 hr schedule from birth
Well you won't be feeding much longer, once she gets to 6 months, I don't think it's right beyond that
Oh it's so easy to go out at night ( in London, an hour train ride away from home) you just express and then someone feeds her with a bottle (at 5 weeks, dd had never had a bottle)

Katie Hopkins on this morning yesterday 'you can literally smell the breastmilk when you walk into Costa' (or similar) - actually pretty offensive and I don't think it would be considered acceptable to ridicule ff in that way on national tv or anywhere else.

I accept it's my responsibility to educate and I do try although that can be very emotive ie when MIL basically won't 'agree with' bf past 6 months rather puts a dampener on family relations. But my point is that bf is very much a marginal activity in ( I think) most people's eyes. Other peoples perceptions really matter so things really need to change.

[tiktok]

Because campaigns which focus on health benefits ignore the real reason most mothers do it - because they want to :) And because I despair at the way people do not understand stats or concepts of risk. And because stressing health benefits and then not supporting women to do it is a big con -and adds to women's distress.

[catellington]

Tiktok why do you think campaigns which focus on health benefits are rubbish? Do you mean they aren't well received or that people aren't that interested in the health benefits?

I had my first dc nearly 9 months ago and don't recall any campaign or being given any information about the benefits of breastfeeding. I've found it all out since just because I'm interested.

I have been utterly shocked about the ignorant and often disapproving comments I've had from people about bf. there ought to be more public information about bf. not just the health benefits but the recommended time for ebf and natural weaning etc. and feeding on demand. Given the amount of nonsense I learnt at school it amazes me that something that affects so many people is barely understood, even by many people who do it.

[tiktok]

Middle child got a special prize (a horrid trophy we had to display on the mantlepiece) for 100 per cent attendance at school, Fakebook. His siblings did not think they were labelled 'bad' for not achieving this.

You actually think not getting a voucher would mean you were labelled a 'bad mother'? By whom?

[Fakebook]

How am I exaggerating? Obviously, if I don't end up breastfeeding I won't get the vouchers. They're rewarding mothers for using a specific type of food for their baby for a specific amount of time. You normally get rewarded for good things. If you don't get a reward then it's natural to think you're doing something wrong. Infact, that is exactly right.

Not exaggerating.

[tiktok]

catellington, often in these debates someone will say the 'benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated' adding that the impression is given that bf babies never get ill and that ff babies are destined to be sick, fat and stupid.

The facts are that in the UK and other settings, the differences between bf and ff babies are less dramatic than in the developing world. But they do still show up consistently in developed countries. Studies control for social/economic factors, too.

However, most ff babies do just fine, and the differences in individual babies would always be hard to pinpoint. It's only when you look at large numbers that the difference shows up.

As a bfc, my personal concern is what women want to do - and their need for the right help to do it. Breastfeeding is most women's choice, not especially for health reasons, I don't think, but because they recognise it's a lovely thing to do for your baby. When it turns out to be rather less than lovely, women sometimes feel let down, sad and disappointed - and a few blame themselves and become very defensive (some are aggressive rather than defensive). I think campaigns and interventions that bang on about health benefits are rubbish, myself - and which is why this vouchers scheme is a bit different and deserves to be tried out.

[catellington]

Why are people saying the benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated?

I would say the opposite is true and it amazes me how much of the evidence isn't well known.

In terms of advertising, breastfeeding is very much under promoted in comparison with formula. What representations there are of breastfeeding in public (there are very few) are often negative and off putting.

Similarly as I said earlier, the value of bf is not well recognised. In a capitalist society this matters a lot. If the financial value of bf were recognised then it would be more likely that additional resources would be allocated to improving bf success rates.

I'm not saying that these vouchers are the best way of valuing breastfeeding. But they are in my opinion a step in that direction and this appears to be one of the aims of the trial.

[tiktok]

Mini, it's an area (how women regard interventions to support breastfeeding, and the individuals involved in them) which is attracting more research interest.

[myrubberduck]

rubbish idea

patronising and pointless.

And for to all those who have suggested\implied that women "should" bf for the greater good/save NHS money/public health I can only say shame on you. Ditto the suggestion that its this is a good reason to promote bf per se.

Any feeding decision should only be based on what is right for the mother and her family. All mothers should be helped to find the right way forward for them, in the event that she needs any help with that decision at all, many don't!

Sadly a lot of feeding info that one is given when pregnant falls down in two important respects; firstly it is not realistic about the problems that can arise in the early days of BF and secondly it tends to exaggerate the proven benefits of BF greatly and/or skate over the holes in the evidence supporting the claims made, presumably with a view to encouraging mums to bf "for the greater good"....

[elliejjtiny]

mini yes, my older children are appalled and fascinated by the pump . The builder who put in our new bathroom got the shock of his life when he walked in on me pumping! It was worth all the hard work to see the look on his face

[Meglet]

I don't think it's available on the web but there was an article in 'significance' (the journal for statisticians) maybe 3/4 yrs ago that questioned the facts / lack of research behind breastfeeding. Might be available in a library for anyone who's interested.

[Minifingers]

elliejjtiny

Your son is fortunate that you are going to such efforts for him to have your milk. It must be very hard for you.

(wonders if your older children try to get a bit too involved when you're expressing milk - mine were appalled, thrilled and fascinated by it!)