to be absolutely freaking fuming about breastfeeding vouchers! !!!

[harriet247]

Cannot put into words how annoyed I am,have just switched on the news to be told that the government are considering offering breastfeeding vouchers to new mums.
160 quid in shopping vouchers for the first 6 weeks of the babys life and 200 if you go up to 6 months.
Im a ftm and I had crippling horrible guilt that I couldn't breastfeed. I really wanted to but my milk didnt turn up until 9 days after my baby was born. I think was something to do with 44 hour labour which ended in an emc a few weeks before my due date.
I am just furious, furious that women are being treated like foolish little ladies who need a cash incentive to feed their babies in the way the powers that be say is best.

[TheFabulousIdiot]

I hope things get better for you elliejjtiny, it sounds really hard.
I had to pump for a while but can understand how hard it must be to have to do it for longer.
x

[Fakebook]

This pissed me off a bit. I breast fed my first two babies with no problems, but am having problems with my third who isn't latching on properly. I'm having to rethink about breastfeeding incase she doesn't ever latch on. So despite trying really hard, I'd be labelled as a bad mother who doesn't deserve vouchers. What a load of bullshit.

[tiktok]

Where does it say the women who don't get vouchers are 'bad mothers'?

Clearly, this would be a Very Bad Thing.

Do they hand out the labels or just yell insults at the mothers in the street? :)

I wonder if you are exagerrating a smidge, Fakebook?

(Hope your bf goes well with this little one)

[beginnings]

This idea is utterly ridiculous nonsense. And I say this as someone currently breastfeeding her second child.

It would have made no difference whatsoever to my decision to breastfeed my children.

What did make a difference was a fabulous midwife who didn't leave my side until my first baby latched after I had returned from surgery having had my third degree tear repaired and my daughter who was born on a river of her own meconium had been checked by the paed as she was a bit grunty.

With my second it was the community midwife who sympathetically sat on my couch as I was horrifically engorged on day five and gave sensible advice on how to cope and manage while it settled down. (When the midwife winces, you know you're not being silly and exaggerating!)

Train every midwife to that standard and that'll get the numbers up. I think this is yet another example of this government patronising women - unsurprising really. God it's depressing.

[frumpet]

The problem is a lot of people bandy around research about breastmilk as though it is something magical that can protect you and your children against all ills .
It isn't . If you breastfeed for 18 months over your life time , you will reduce the chance of developing breast cancer . If you drink a bottle of wine a week and are overweight , then that 18 months spent breast feeding wont have as protective an influence .
If you have a family history of ENT / dermatological issues then regardless of your choice of feeding your child may still suffer from these issues as they are genetically related to you and your family .
This does not detract from the fact that breastfeeding is good and should be encouraged and that a hell of a lot more should be done to support all woman to achieve it . Perhaps starting with a little bit more honesty about how shit it can be until feeding is well established and a lot less soft focus one boob shots

[Minifingers]

"The problem is a lot of people bandy around research about breastmilk as though it is something magical that can protect you and your children against all ills "

Actually in 'bandying about research' you are doing the very opposite of implying that breastmilk is 'magical'. What you're doing is flagging up the evidence and inviting people to take note of it. People who bother to read the research will have a reasonable and realistic understanding of what health benefits may come from breastfeeding.
.
Most people who engage in discussions on this issue on mumsnet haven't read any studies at all. At most they will have skim read a couple of paragraphs of a report from the Daily Mail. Those people on this site who argue against breastfeeding having any significant benefits, and make the most complaints about the quality of research, tend to be the ones who've done the least reading.



"It isn't . If you breastfeed for 18 months over your life time , you will reduce the chance of developing breast cancer . If you drink a bottle of wine a week and are overweight , then that 18 months spent breast feeding wont have as protective an influence"

Sorry - are you saying that breastfeeding no longer reduces your chance of experiencing breast cancer if you drink or are overweight?

Or are you saying that that being fat and drinking a bottle of wine a week offsets the risk reduction offered by prolonged breastfeeding, resulting in an individual who has done all of these things having the same chance of getting breast cancer of someone who does none of these things?

If you are saying the first - you are simply wrong.

If you are saying the second - you are making an even stronger case for breastfeeding for women who wish to reduce their lifetime risk of breast cancer.

[SoupDragon]

I wouldn't even say formula adverts give you biased information

How about the follow on advert (which is all they can advertise and why they invented follow on milk) which had the truly giant cup of cows milk to illunstrate how fabulously rich in iron their milk was?

[Minifingers]

"So despite trying really hard, I'd be labelled as a bad mother who doesn't deserve vouchers."

Tiktok - could someone persuade you to do a PHD on public debate around infant feeding issues? I'm fascinated by the extent of people's delusions about the views and intentions of breastfeeding advocates and supporters. And you'd be just the person to do it.

[Minifingers]

elliejjtiny

Your son is fortunate that you are going to such efforts for him to have your milk. It must be very hard for you.

(wonders if your older children try to get a bit too involved when you're expressing milk - mine were appalled, thrilled and fascinated by it!)

[Meglet]

I don't think it's available on the web but there was an article in 'significance' (the journal for statisticians) maybe 3/4 yrs ago that questioned the facts / lack of research behind breastfeeding. Might be available in a library for anyone who's interested.

[elliejjtiny]

mini yes, my older children are appalled and fascinated by the pump . The builder who put in our new bathroom got the shock of his life when he walked in on me pumping! It was worth all the hard work to see the look on his face

[myrubberduck]

rubbish idea

patronising and pointless.

And for to all those who have suggested\implied that women "should" bf for the greater good/save NHS money/public health I can only say shame on you. Ditto the suggestion that its this is a good reason to promote bf per se.

Any feeding decision should only be based on what is right for the mother and her family. All mothers should be helped to find the right way forward for them, in the event that she needs any help with that decision at all, many don't!

Sadly a lot of feeding info that one is given when pregnant falls down in two important respects; firstly it is not realistic about the problems that can arise in the early days of BF and secondly it tends to exaggerate the proven benefits of BF greatly and/or skate over the holes in the evidence supporting the claims made, presumably with a view to encouraging mums to bf "for the greater good"....

[tiktok]

Mini, it's an area (how women regard interventions to support breastfeeding, and the individuals involved in them) which is attracting more research interest.

[catellington]

Why are people saying the benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated?

I would say the opposite is true and it amazes me how much of the evidence isn't well known.

In terms of advertising, breastfeeding is very much under promoted in comparison with formula. What representations there are of breastfeeding in public (there are very few) are often negative and off putting.

Similarly as I said earlier, the value of bf is not well recognised. In a capitalist society this matters a lot. If the financial value of bf were recognised then it would be more likely that additional resources would be allocated to improving bf success rates.

I'm not saying that these vouchers are the best way of valuing breastfeeding. But they are in my opinion a step in that direction and this appears to be one of the aims of the trial.

[tiktok]

catellington, often in these debates someone will say the 'benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated' adding that the impression is given that bf babies never get ill and that ff babies are destined to be sick, fat and stupid.

The facts are that in the UK and other settings, the differences between bf and ff babies are less dramatic than in the developing world. But they do still show up consistently in developed countries. Studies control for social/economic factors, too.

However, most ff babies do just fine, and the differences in individual babies would always be hard to pinpoint. It's only when you look at large numbers that the difference shows up.

As a bfc, my personal concern is what women want to do - and their need for the right help to do it. Breastfeeding is most women's choice, not especially for health reasons, I don't think, but because they recognise it's a lovely thing to do for your baby. When it turns out to be rather less than lovely, women sometimes feel let down, sad and disappointed - and a few blame themselves and become very defensive (some are aggressive rather than defensive). I think campaigns and interventions that bang on about health benefits are rubbish, myself - and which is why this vouchers scheme is a bit different and deserves to be tried out.

[Fakebook]

How am I exaggerating? Obviously, if I don't end up breastfeeding I won't get the vouchers. They're rewarding mothers for using a specific type of food for their baby for a specific amount of time. You normally get rewarded for good things. If you don't get a reward then it's natural to think you're doing something wrong. Infact, that is exactly right.

Not exaggerating.

[tiktok]

Middle child got a special prize (a horrid trophy we had to display on the mantlepiece) for 100 per cent attendance at school, Fakebook. His siblings did not think they were labelled 'bad' for not achieving this.

You actually think not getting a voucher would mean you were labelled a 'bad mother'? By whom?

[catellington]

Tiktok why do you think campaigns which focus on health benefits are rubbish? Do you mean they aren't well received or that people aren't that interested in the health benefits?

I had my first dc nearly 9 months ago and don't recall any campaign or being given any information about the benefits of breastfeeding. I've found it all out since just because I'm interested.

I have been utterly shocked about the ignorant and often disapproving comments I've had from people about bf. there ought to be more public information about bf. not just the health benefits but the recommended time for ebf and natural weaning etc. and feeding on demand. Given the amount of nonsense I learnt at school it amazes me that something that affects so many people is barely understood, even by many people who do it.

[tiktok]

Because campaigns which focus on health benefits ignore the real reason most mothers do it - because they want to :) And because I despair at the way people do not understand stats or concepts of risk. And because stressing health benefits and then not supporting women to do it is a big con -and adds to women's distress.

[catellington]

Ie the comments like

You're feeding her again? Mine were on a 4 hr schedule from birth
Well you won't be feeding much longer, once she gets to 6 months, I don't think it's right beyond that
Oh it's so easy to go out at night ( in London, an hour train ride away from home) you just express and then someone feeds her with a bottle (at 5 weeks, dd had never had a bottle)

Katie Hopkins on this morning yesterday 'you can literally smell the breastmilk when you walk into Costa' (or similar) - actually pretty offensive and I don't think it would be considered acceptable to ridicule ff in that way on national tv or anywhere else.

I accept it's my responsibility to educate and I do try although that can be very emotive ie when MIL basically won't 'agree with' bf past 6 months rather puts a dampener on family relations. But my point is that bf is very much a marginal activity in ( I think) most people's eyes. Other peoples perceptions really matter so things really need to change.

[puntasticusername]

catellington - informational campaigns, on their own, are generally very ineffective at changing people's behaviour. It doesn't mean that they are pointless, or never well received. Just that changing behaviour is a complex, difficult and multifaceted task, and is still incompletely understood within behavioural science. And you have to beware of unintended consequences and so forth. It's all fun

[catellington]

Ok - I'm not a marketeer can you tell??? my perspective on this issue is as a type of finance 'geek' professionally with knowledge of fiscal policy etc and also personally feel evangelical about bf and want people to get best chance to bf if they want to.

I do think it will probably take a generation for things to change, but that means things will hopefully be better for my dd when she has her own doc and so for that reason I feel really strongly about it.

[catellington]

Aaa argh - when she has her own DC, not DOC!

[puntasticusername]

catellington ah, yours is an interesting perspective to have then. We often expect people to make rational decisions with their money, but it's amazing how often that doesn't actually happen in practice. Because so many other factors are at work to influence the choices people make.