to be concerned re. what is going on re. immigration and population growth?

[ClarityJane]

So many non-English voices, especially East Europeans, but so many different nationalities en masse it seems have moved here in the last 10-20 years - completely unprecedented historically. And in an already very over-crowded island.

Today I read Labour MP Frank Field say that the population increase due to immigration by 2031, i.e. less than 20 years, will be approximately 10 million and will require building something like seven new Birminghams! Or another London! Based on latest predictions in the papers today anyway.

Did Blair and Mandelson envisage this when they signed up for European Community rules on immigration and refugees? Or did they cynically not care because it meant cheap labour, cheap votes, increased profits (via membership of the European Community).

Did the architects of this policy not consider how it would affect housing, jobs and education and the resulting massive investment needed there, and the over-crowded population we have already.

I believe we have never been consulted or told anything honestly about what the consequences of EC membership was immigration-wise, if indeed there was ever any plan (doesn't seem to be, just a kind of opportunistic carpetbaggers philosophy approach of selling England by the pound).

I feel deceived and hoodwinked really. But are there any more positive thoughts on this? I find it v. depressing.

it was a joke A JOKE ................ Jeesh.

I'm working class. I didn't take what Feelin said as directed at working class people.

And I don't think MrsD would take it that way either. I think she'd see your comments for the stirring that they are Doris

Ohhhhhhh...hilarious

janine the pint is they have a sperate political and economic system to UK so therefore have a seperate immigration poicy and is nowt to do with whether we can send people there (as was refernced up thread) NO by me.

doris yeah PMP at that.

As for assuming all eastern europeans are cheap labour, you are also mistaken about that as well. My DP worked with a bulgarian carpenter - he charged the same rates as his English counterparts. My DP often passes him jobs or gets him to do work for him, not because he is cheap but because he is good at his job, it wouldn't matter where he came from.

People talk about work ethics of "forinners" - I think if you are motivated enough to up sticks and move, possibly with your family, to another country in pursuit of a better life, or just a different life then you are going to have quite a strong work ethic, so i think its more that the type of people who emmigrate are more likely to be motivated. My aunt and uncle moved to australia back in the 70's, they worked bloody hard and made a good life for themselves. By the same standard, my colleague at work was chinese and i remember saying to her one day - blimey x, you chinese are bloody workaholics (several chinese folk in our department, all work junkies) She said no, its not the case, in China there were many lazy people (her words not mine!) and said exactly what i said - those motivated to go around the world for work were going to be motivated generally in life - she had worked in australia and america, both her and her husband, both scientists and in academia many folk follow the work and think nothing of moving across the world to work on a particular project. I loved working at the university, it was so diverse and that was only a good thing - especially when there were televised sporting events - lets say that the tea room was an interesting place to be during the world cup

www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html

The link is a bit confusing, as the denstity per square mile figures and which country are in 2 columns.

UK, 650 Ireland 153
Look at the likes of Singapore!!!

point

It must be the case that every job an immigrant does is one less that an unemployed Brit can find.

So much wrong with this my head might explode BUT for a simple one

what about every business which has been set up by an immigrant and which employs British people????

It must be the case that every job an immigrant does is one less that an unemployed Brit can find.

Obviously not. There are, for instance, hospitals that cannot find enough staff for A and E department despite recruiting for months who end up having to recruit abroad. The people who come to fill those jobs are immigrants. The system would collapse without them.

trish have you any idea why Irish population levels are at that level? Any?

Aye Lem ive moved from North East to West Midlands canny work ethic me!

I think if you are motivated enough to up sticks and move, possibly with your family, to another country in pursuit of a better life, or just a different life then you are going to have quite a strong work ethic, so i think its more that the type of people who emigrate are more likely to be motivated.

YES. There was a thread here a while ago about people being unwilling to move within the UK for more work, cheaper housing, etc (e.g. out of ex-mining areas) Many, many excuses were given - and that was within the same country, speaking the same language, etc.

People that move to a new country where they may know few people, may have to live in over crowded conditions, may have to be subjected to horrific racism, and may have to work several, unpleasant jobs are indeed likely to be highly motivated.

And those are just the immigrants at the lower socioeconomic end of the scale, never mind those who come here with several degrees and work at the highest end of education/manufacturing/services.

I don't think eastern Europeans are cheap labour, joiners, plumbers around here are great at their jobs, but if there is an endless supply of workers then there will never be a shortage and shortages push up wages.

And the point I made earlier, that no one will take on expensive to train apprentices when there is a pool of trained labour to call on, is a valid one. So it's not so good for those who would have benefited from that.

I would say many of the immigrants round here are middle class, they are well educated, and in well paid work. Also some in factory work, but there are hardly any factories now so they are few in number.

Trish the problem with density per square mile measure is it is an average, that is the total square miles overall int he country it gives figures for general comparison. it does not indicate the following:

amount of habitable land
population density in developed areas (suburbs v rural)
overcrowding
under resourced eg school place per 1000 children or hospital beds

I know about racism, i know about how thick and ignorant racist people are - i think the following pretty much sums it up.

My mum is white - as in, she is the daughter of an english man and spanish woman - but she is (was) white. Back in 1958 she developed a medical condition that nearly killed her, the treatment and the condition itself has resulted in her body producing too much melanin - the substance that makes people tan. As a consequence she is "black" quite black, like a ghanain (spelling!). She was once threatened with a knife and told to go back to her own country. She was on more than one occasion verbally abused on the streets for being black - when she was with me, her daughter, a young little girl with white blonde hair. But people thought it was ok to tell my mother to go back where she came from We went to a pub recently with her and there were some ignorant cunts sat discussing in loud voices how the BNP were right and how this country was going to the dogs - i faced them down, big meat headed men and told them a few home truths, they didn't know what to do with with themselves. I have had to stand up for my mum many times

so yeah, when I see racism, or prejudice i will continue to call thoes people what they are - ignorant cunts, if MNHQ can't deal with that sort of thing on this thread then the whole thread should go, they are not doing themselves a great favour here.

Not sure why you are attacking me Janine when I was right all along about population levels.
So, on that basis, I am going to choose not to engage with you on this thread, and wish you a good evening.

Yes marzi I remember that thread it got quite hot re north south divide but not out of hand from what I recall. As ive just indicated up there, my DH and I both moved to West Mids from North East - there are barriers that we have had to overcome - some we kind of figured out and accepted ourselves and others were pointed out to us.

And once again I give you my SIL and her younger sister, from Lithuania. SIL came here about 10 years ago, took a shitty little room in a crappy house (overpriced, privately rented) and took on three jobs. All badly paid, manual labour jobs that no one else wanted to do. Her younger sister followed about four years ago. They have left their Mother and grandparents in Lithuania. They barely get to see their family at home now.

The NHS can't find staff because of the excessive demands made on staff due to understaffing, poor management, horrible shift patterns now, nurses doing 12 hour shifts with an unpaid handover of half and hour at least at each end, which means that it's difficult if you have a family, the salary being too low to afford decent housing.
But the salaries are high, relatively speaking, for those from third world countries.

Trish no not at all personal to you. I have commented on the relative usefulness of the data you linked. It is not irrelavent, I should have said but not the full picture.

I haven't attacked you, trish, I've simply asked you some questions which you evidently can't answer. I suggest you go and read up on the history of depopulation on Ireland and then perhaps you'll begin to grasp why your suggestion was so ignorant and offensive.

Third world countries

doris - i dont know about where you live, but are you or is your partner in the construction industry?

Mine is - there has been a downturn in wages over the past five years, generally - apart from the plumbers, they were doing great guns as there were fewer plumbers and they were in demand. Because of this they charge £££s So, everyone wants to be a plumber - no one wants to be a carpenter or bricklayer - they don't earn as much. There has been a definate shift and now carpenters are starting to charge a premium as there is a shortfall. Lots of eastern europeans in the business around here - my DP is a carpenter/general builder - he never advertises and is considering having himself cloned to keep up with the recent increase in demand for his services. The going-rate for site work is going up too, DP tells me this sort of cycle often happens in the building trade. My DP is expensive - he doesn't need to be cheap because he is good at what he does and people are happy to pay the money, people who undercut and charge peanuts do this because they are not so good and rush the jobs - it doesn't matter where they are from. Am hopefull that this improvement continues

Well said LEM

just realised you meant janine.

You see I think most people on this thread have encountered racism or witnessed it in some form. It is very hard to be objective when our natural default position is to relate to our own experiences, which of course are emmotionally charged.