to be concerned re. what is going on re. immigration and population growth?

[ClarityJane]

So many non-English voices, especially East Europeans, but so many different nationalities en masse it seems have moved here in the last 10-20 years - completely unprecedented historically. And in an already very over-crowded island.

Today I read Labour MP Frank Field say that the population increase due to immigration by 2031, i.e. less than 20 years, will be approximately 10 million and will require building something like seven new Birminghams! Or another London! Based on latest predictions in the papers today anyway.

Did Blair and Mandelson envisage this when they signed up for European Community rules on immigration and refugees? Or did they cynically not care because it meant cheap labour, cheap votes, increased profits (via membership of the European Community).

Did the architects of this policy not consider how it would affect housing, jobs and education and the resulting massive investment needed there, and the over-crowded population we have already.

I believe we have never been consulted or told anything honestly about what the consequences of EC membership was immigration-wise, if indeed there was ever any plan (doesn't seem to be, just a kind of opportunistic carpetbaggers philosophy approach of selling England by the pound).

I feel deceived and hoodwinked really. But are there any more positive thoughts on this? I find it v. depressing.

Just off the top of my head, at the moment in school we have Spanish, Portuguese, Angolan, Afghanistani, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, German, Algerian, Malayan and Chinese children. I'm sure there are children from other nations that I have forgotten.

They all mix together and get on with everyone. They can all now speak English well.

I'm a mix of Italian, Scottish, English and that is just from the last 3 generations.

Yeah, we had Polish in Birmingham too. They also mixed fine. And so do the Eastern Europeans where I am now.

I wonder if the bigger issue is that immigrant are picking up 'fuck off' vibes in certain communities from the eejits who clearly don't want them there.

Blimey I forgot the Polish! We have quite a few Polish children in school. And Bosnian.

Dawndonnagain - yes he was an arse. He drove his French but spanish speaking GF round the bend.

Admittedly it's true - some Spaniards I know (their friends) can't speak much English but this is due to not much practice, not for the want of trying.

I know several Spaniards fluent in English with Spanish partners etc.

Exactly, heartbroken. I personally choose not to integrate at all with moronic bigots and I'm British born, so certainly can't blame immigrants for choosing not to...

So the thread is still here.

Wtf is going on with MN.

Isn't starting a thread to deliberately provoke against talk guidelines anymore?

I think personally IT DEPENDS on the area.

some areas there is lots of mixing some there aren't. There was a Channel 4 programme re immigrants learning English where a Polish woman didn't speak much English NOR integrate much (but she learned to do so).

Whereas my Polish architect friend - she had a smattering of English but learned (through drunken nights out and socialising in and out of work) English gradually - it was her conversational English she found it hard with and practice often makes perfect as it were. she also WANTED to improve her English. she ended up living in Brick Lane where integration was sort of common but then again she found some of the Asian males in the area were hostile to non-Asian women - her experience first hand. but day to day she got along ok.

Usual - I'm gobsmacked the thread's still here too.

I've reported another PA this morning and heard nothing back on it. No comments have been deleted either.

Very disappointed in HQ today.

another point - which is going back - I have a Chinese/Vietnamese parents friend whom I knew when at college - she always ended up translating for her parents re social security etc.

she found it frustrating as with them not speaking English they could not get work unless in those communities but not only that they needed her (and her sister) as translators with English people. these people however were refugees. of course she, her brother and sister integrated (brother not so much) into English society but of course they had to do so.

I live in Leicester.

plenty of integration going on here.

Most of my comments on this thread have been deleted.

Oh, turns out loads of comments have been deleted - mainly the ones where people were talking sense and calling people out on their racism .

Lots of mine have gone...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your reports - we're sorry that we have been slow to act on this thread.

We have now been through the thread and deleted posts which broke our talk guidelines. We tend not to class people's posts about their individual experiences with an ethnic group as racist, but sweeping negative statements about a certain group of people will be deleted for racism.

As ever troll-hunting will be zapped, so please try to refrain and report things to us instead (even if it does feel like we are taking ages to respond!)

We know that a lot of people have asked for this thread to be deleted, but since we have been through it we are happy to let it stand as a lot of informed comments have been made about immigration.

Usual do you think it's because we (and Gordy, MrsD, Maryz, Jacqueline) are all cunts?

I reckon mnhq are upping and adding up my deleted post count so they can get rid.

Trolls gonna troll.

Am I alone in thinking the above message from mumsnet HQ is a bit misleading - it makes it look like the bulk of deletions were for racism, with a few for troll hunting, when in fact (given what I remember of the thread before HQ went deletion-happy on it) most were probably (within the rules) personal attacks aimed at posters perceived to be racist. And (while I realise HQ want to apply the rules "fairly") I actually think PAs are a pretty defensible reaction to racist arseholes.

I'd hate someone reading this thread to see the HQ message, scan through the deletions and leap to the conclusion that the posters who'd had deleted messages were racists.

FWIW I think the post I had deleted was for troll hunting.

It's always the way.

The racist idiots posts stay, but anyone calling them on it gets deleted.

What Lurcio said. I don't like the idea of being lumped in with someone like mylovelyboy either.

And Usual - you're always causing trouble, but bloody hell, I've only ever had one post deleted before now - check out my tally. I is well hard!

And can we be absolutely clear - if someone (let's call them X) thinks any other person is less of a human being because of their ethnicity or nationality - then X does not merely hold a cuntish viewpoint, they are a cunt!

(Hoping that this does not get deleted on the grounds of being a blanket reference to bigots).

Also, wrt reporting - I did report, very earlier on.

MN weren't on the case. How long ago did this thread start? Why has it taken so long to get sorted?

What else was going to happen? MN weren't doing their job and monitoring and deleting the offensive racist posts (including OP's posts - why are they still standing?) so of course we started to pull people up on disgusting comments.

Sorry MNHQ but if someone's a racist I'm gonna call it.

Immigration may have a positive effect on the economy but immigration at this level is still a social experiment and throws up huge questions about culture, what British Culture is and what it is we share beyond a shared desire to get ahead economically. Is a belief in capitalism alone enough to bring us together as a nation?

I think in this debate the experiences of people living in communities that are changing are silenced and their concerns are written off as bigotry. The tensions that exist between communities is real. The racism that exists between different communities does happen. But let's pretend it doesn't. Why not.

The OP has a legitimate concern about resources not meeting needs of growing population and there are a million anecdotes of issues. Also the govt figures on immigration are shit.

Im an immigrant ( canada from 1998) but i would be foolish in thinking that we are all holding hands with our multicultural neighbours singing kumbaya.

What social experiment? There has always been times of mass immigration in this country - throughout recorded history.

Is this the experiment that the mice are conducting in Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy?

Wow, deleted for calling one of the clearly racist posters a Bgt.

Just wow.