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Original poster

To think hitting someone else's child....

167 replies

pinkballetflats · 01/11/2013 13:53

is NOT ok?

Acquaintance of mine is today boasting online that she hit a 5-year-old last night because of his bad manners while ToTing. Yes, the little angel needed to be told it is not okay to barge through everyone else and knock a smaller child over in the process, but hitting? She was pulled up on it but her attitude is her house, her rules and a slap on the hand is appropriate.

This isn't the first time she's boasted about hitting stranger's children. She did it at a restaurant once too because the toddler was pulling on her hair...fair enough, something needed to be said...but instead she turned around and slapped the child on the hand.

Am I just being precious in thinking this is the completely wrong way to handle either situation?

OP posts:
dyslexicdespot · 02/11/2013 09:42

livingzuid- I don't want to derail this thread but I thought this was interesting in regards to the in comments about the Netherlands.

While I agree that the UK does do many things right, based on all the reports I have ever seen concerning child physical and mental well being, child rearing is not one of them.

www.theguardian.com/society/2009/apr/21/children-poverty-wellbeing-cpag-europe

Note that corporal punishment is not allowed in the countries where children are the best off.

2tiredtoScare · 02/11/2013 10:06

A child was very rude to me at a party recently, shoving me and saying 'get out of the way' I told him not to be rude but I wouldn't dream of hitting

livingzuid · 02/11/2013 10:16

Thanks dyslexicdespot :) we are researching schools atm for dc. Discipline is a harsh word but important to both DH and me. Dutch children are definitely given more leeway and I don't approve of that with strangers. UK does better in schools but not so well at home perhaps?

I remember a kiwi friend describing once how not hitting dawned on her. She was about to give her son a smack for hitting his sister and mid way stopped and thought, here I am using violence to stop violence which makes no sense! Which it doesn't really.

ChoudeBruxelles · 02/11/2013 10:20

If someone did that to my ds I'd probably slap them back and see if that was ok with them

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 10:21

The Netherlands head this report for overall child well being. I think THEY'RE the ones that seem to be getting it right and I think if I were living there and able to take advantage of their systems I'd be quite happy about that UNICEF child poverty report.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 11:01

Sorry dyslexic missed your link that already said the same as mine Smile.

Caitlin17 · 02/11/2013 11:04

Dyslexicdespot , no surprises in placings 1to 6 on that list. They will also have the lowest rates of teenage pregnancies and will continue to have the best outcomes throughout their lives.

Jengnr · 02/11/2013 11:05

What's the method with Dutch children and what don't you approve oflivingzuid

I'm not following I don't think.

Jengnr · 02/11/2013 11:06

I think, even.

Poor marks for comprehension and grammar for me today :(

dyslexicdespot · 02/11/2013 11:27

I think it's quite simple really. When a person who is in a position of trust hits a child they teach that child that being subjected to violence is a normalised part of a relationship.

Is this really what you want we want teach our children?

I certainly do not want my DS to grow up thinking that violence can ever be a part of a healthy relationship.

As mentioned before, all you have to do is look at research that has been published on corporeal punishment, and keep in mind that personal experiences/anecdotes are not generlisable onto a wider population. Meaning that, while you might not have been damaged by this or that, it does not follow that the vast majority of people will not be.

dyslexicdespot · 02/11/2013 11:28

Sorry, it should read: 'Is that really what we want to teach our children?'

Mia4 · 02/11/2013 11:29

Misspixietrix My have was tapped as a child, it hasn't affected me. I hope i never smack myself, I guess I can say I 200% don't want to but not having been lucky enough to get to the point where I have someone to discipline yet I suppose you can never say 100% that you won't. My sister used to, then she got freaked out when DN ran off and hid in a store, she smacked her bum because she was so scared and emotional on finding.

My reasons for not wanting to currently has nothing to do with thinking it's ineffective or like it- my choice about smacking or tapping was made up long long ago when I when I realised how much I loved spanking and some SM games. That choice was made long before the choice of wanting kids was. And given how much my DP and I enjoy spanking ourselves it just seems creepy to consider using it as discipline on a child. This is purely our issue though, because we play like that so much, it's not something i share generally so I have no idea if anyone else who plays like we do would find the same.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 11:48

I have just never understood this move from fear to aggression. You think your child is lost and gone so you hit them on their return? Your child nearly gets run over so you hit them to show how worried you were?

I've been in these situation, what parent hasn't? But I've just been so happy and relieved to get them back in one piece that I have just hugged them and often cried and then told them how dangerous it was and how they must never do it again.

Someone said early that as a STUDENT I don't know about RL. My Mum hit me almost every day growing up, she lost her temper a lot and we all knew about it. I have two dc of my own who have ASD and I am a lone parent. I know plenty about RL. But I still can't relate feeling fear to hitting my child after a dangerous situation. What is it actually teaching them? Don't run away because I will hit you when you get back. Don't get into accidents because I will hit you if you do because you scared me.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 11:53

And that's not even mentioning the times they've just done something that's a PITA but understandable because they're KIDS and so you hurt them to show them.

Because that's what it is, it's NOT discipline, however controlled it is. You are making the choice to hurt your child because you don't like what they did. In a way I can understand better a parent being pushed to their absolute limits by a child's bad behaviour, note not being in a dangerous situation and losing it, but this controlled "tapping"? You are making an informed decision to do this. Which is frankly odd in my opinion.

livingzuid · 02/11/2013 11:59

Sorry I derailed.

Sparkly have you any experience of things here? Or is your observation simply on the strength of a report from 2009? The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Jenger hmm how best to explain? There are of course huge cultural differences which is why we are not one big happy EU (or global) family! But before anyone gets the wrong idea let me just say the Dutch are the same as any other nation and on the whole very lovely. I do like it here. I'm just want my child to have the best of what we teach in the UK and the best from the Dutch culture. And I am not sure they will get that in a Dutch school so I am trying to figure out how to achieve that!

I will use the example of DH's upbringing. He is Dutch but second generation. His father is Dutch and his mum from England. So he received two completely different approaches. His mother was strict and tolerated no nonsense. His dad on the other hand would let him do or say anything. That's not his dad being lame but culturally the Dutch are very outspoken which is something that starts from birth. If a child wants something it will ask but to the point of rudeness and not 'please may i' but 'I want'. my DH was a bit extreme to the point where if he was in someone's house he wouldn't have anything for fear of my Mil lol but she found the opposite when his friends used to come over and demand things as soon as they got through the door. In school children address their teachers by 1st name, and the bluntness they learn when little carries on as an adult. Which can cause problems. One of the essential things I was taught was just because you think something does not mean you should say it. They don't have that here. It has led to huge rows between me and DH sometimes!

Also if I am in a restaurant or park or some public space children could come and play right next to me or run around being really very annoying (ok a park fair enough but a supermarket?) and no one bats an eyelid or calls them off. I have actually had a child swing from the back of my chair in a restaurant and the parent hasn't called them off! And when DH commented the parents started an argument! I don't quite know what to call it but it takes forthright to a new level. DH can't stand it says there is a real lack of respect that doesn't get taught. I think the word is precocious? A child is more likely to start an argument with you than think hmmmmm that person is an adult and I do need to be polite. Tbh I find the children here a bit spoilt.

I know children are badly behaved in the UK. I lived on a dodgy estate in London for five years and watched kids shoot fireworks at people and each other! But I think on the whole we work really hard to be polite and respectful and most people instil that in their kids. I just don't find that here.

Just as an aside, ask any expat about dutch customer service. They will probably start crying!

I'd be happy to have any of this refuted by some of the Dutch mums I know are on mums net. This is just my own experience. But it's a reason why many expat parents think hard about what kind of discipline they want their child to receive at school.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 12:08

I lived in Germany for 10 years of my life and often visited friends in The Netherlands and they us.

livingzuid · 02/11/2013 12:09

Apologies sparkly you are referring to the UN report. But that alone still does not mean things are great. There is huge bias and racism in the systems here too. I am not going to detail any more so shall leave it there.

livingzuid · 02/11/2013 12:11

Derail even.. Germany is completely different to the Netherlands however and visiting a country is not the same as being in it. I shall stop there however.

Mia4 · 02/11/2013 12:12

Sparklysilversequins I couldn't tell you personally of the leap from fear to aggression (if your post was in reply to my sister's case of smacking) and I can't tell you what she felt or looked like there and then because I wasn't there but she always said it was an angry reaction in her case. My DN had been hiding on purpose and thought it funny to make my sister distraught, my sister never smacked as a discipline method but this time she lashed out and smacked.

I do think fear and a sudden reaction like that can go hand in hand though, I've seen people slap or shake those (adults) who have really freaked them out or overwrought them. I don't know why it happens, it hasn't happened to me so I can't explain how or why, but I've seen adults do it to other adults so maybe it's a topic for discussion unrelated to physical discipline with children.

Your mum sounds abusive btw, hitting you almost every day just because she lost her temper.

I think tapping and smacking will always be a controversial subject for obvious reasons, I think sometimes different cultures have different attitude- in my first comment, I mentioned my friend who pinches which i found really bullying and unpleasant but it's a norm among those who she grew up with and some of her friends.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 12:15

I don't mean to undermine your point of view, you live there I don't Smile. I am surprised and quite sad to hear about the racism element though as I knew a few cross cultural relationships between people living there and it always seemed to be a given that they experienced more acceptance there than anywhere else they had lived.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 12:16

Obviously I realise Germany is an entirely different country I was giving context to my experiences.

Sparklysilversequins · 02/11/2013 12:18

Yes, she was abusive alright Mia. I think she kind realises now but at the time she was very much in the "it's discipline" camp. And I don't think she really takes it on board because there was a lot of talk about "lack of discipline" regarding my dc when they were smaller.

livingzuid · 02/11/2013 12:20

Sparkly you are right and apologies if I came across prickly it wasn't intended that way
:) Dutch liberalism is skin deep. Scratch the surface and it's a different story. And sadly it's becoming even more conservative.

But still smacking and hitting are illegal for anyone Inc parents here! On the plus side I have never seen anyone lay a finger on their child. It's just not done.

Mia4 · 02/11/2013 12:25

Sparklysilversequins I'm sorry you went through that and that your mother won't accept responsibility for her actions. If she's of that mindsent it makes sense that she'll never see any other method of discipline but her own as 'the one'. Which must be frustrating for you.

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