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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to consider this an act of theft?

118 replies

Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:01

Last night I went into a pub, bought a bottle of wine and sat down in the pub garden.

We had drunk just a glass each when we were told to leave because the place was closing. We were surprised the barman hadn't warned us when we bought the wine that we probably wouldn't have time to drink it all because the pub was soon to close.

We tried to take the unfinished bottle with us when we left, but were confronted by several uniformed security guards at the exit to the pub, one of whom forcibly took the bottle from me.

We remonstrated, of course, but were simply told repeatedly that we weren't allowed to take drink from the premises. I asked if that was because the pub didn't have an off-licence - they didn't know, but I'm guessing that was the reason. Also, apparently it's a crime to be out on the street in that area (I was in a big city). Of course, we planned to get straight into a taxi once we had left the pub rather than waddle down the road swigging it.

Bearing in mind that security guards have no more power than you or me (many people think they are invested with some sort of legal power but that's not true - they are simply members of the public with a uniform on), was this theft, do you think?

I don't see how it can't be. A member of the public (albeit a burly one with a uniform on) forcibly took something from me. To say that it's a crime to be on the streets with alcohol - or that the pub doesn't have an off-licence - is no excuse, surely. You cannot take someone else's property in order to prevent them from committing a crime and for that to be legally OK.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:02
  • out on the street in that area with alcohol
OP posts:
TEErickOrTEEreat · 26/10/2013 10:04

I'm not sure it was legally left, but it was certainly strange.

I'd complain to the pub.

Lulaloo · 26/10/2013 10:07

I think they were correct with my limited knowledge of licenses.
Their license does not permit you to buy alcohol and then take it off the premises, you must finish it or leave it.
I am sure someone more knowledgable will be along to help shortly.

JustAnotherFucker · 26/10/2013 10:10

If you are in a dry area as many places are these days he was absolutely not allowed to let you take it out without it risking their licence. That doesn't even take into account the fact that they may not have a licence which allows drink to be consumed off the premises.

Its not theft and he is not a member of the public. He will have been SIA registered and local council approved doorman. YADBU.

Why on earth did you not just drink it Confused

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:12

Yes, but even if the pub doesn't have an off-licence, does that mean that someone connected from the pub has the legal right to take it from me?

Maybe I'm entirely wrong - I just found this:

"(1)A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

If that's true, that means that any member of the public would have been entitled to take the wine from me, so that I didn't commit the crime of being on the streets with alcohol.

Does anyone know if that is the case?

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:15

JustAnotherFucker, much as I love wine, even I can't down the best part of a bottle in 10 seconds. Grin

I think you are not right with regard to security guards. They do not have any powers over and above any other member of the public, no matter who they are registered with.

OP posts:
TEErickOrTEEreat · 26/10/2013 10:15

I think I would stop worrying about the legality and be more annoyed that the barman didn't say 'drink quick, we're closing soon'.

That's the part that's theft, IMHO.

BeeBawBabbity · 26/10/2013 10:17

Im watching with interest as the same thing happened to me several years ago, but I wasn't even allowed to carry my bottle to the waitng taxi across the road. I was annoyed.

BillyBanter · 26/10/2013 10:19

You should have just hidden it better when leaving.

A lot less hassle than taking your human rights case to Strasbourg.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:19

But the barman was under no legal obligation to inform us that the pub would soon be closing. Yes, it was a bit irritating but it wasn't his responsibility.

OP posts:
pixiepotter · 26/10/2013 10:20

Yes I think it is theft.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:21

Haha, Billy Banter! SmileI don't live in a big city so I had no idea I'd have to hide it otherwise I would have done.

I'm just irritated with the "I'm so important" FBI-style of the security personnel.

OP posts:
Cleorapter · 26/10/2013 10:23

You should have had a twenty minute warning to finish your drinks before the pub closed (drinking up time) if they didn't give you that you're well within your rights to complain about it.

The venue obviously didn't have the licence to allow you off site with alcohol, if they had allowed it they could have lost their licence. Security are there to protect their venue's licence so it's not unreasonable for them to not allow you offsite with the wine (although they didn't need to be so rude as to forcibly take it from you however) though they are not just members of the public. They must be licensed to work the doors.

You have not been a victim of theft IMO, but it does seem you've been a victim of pretty shite customer service.

friday16 · 26/10/2013 10:23

Lillielangtry

That's CPS guidelines for self-defence and use of violence to prevent crime. It also says "Prosecutors should have particular regard to:nature of the offence being committed by the victim". Licensing offences? I suspect that wouldn't get over that threshold.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:34

Cleorapter, I appreciate that if the pub doesn't have an off-licence, they would be committing a crime if they sold alcohol that was taken off the premises. I'm not sure that that fact invests them (or the security company they employ) to take it off me.

They probably did give a 20-minute warning but the pub was loud and busy and we were outside.

I am still very doubtful that people employed as security guards have any more rights than any other member of the public.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:37

From www.inbrief.co.uk (free legal advice):

"Security guards do not actually have any more legal powers than any member of the general public..."

OP posts:
curlew · 26/10/2013 10:41

What did you want them to do?

DuckworthLewis · 26/10/2013 10:44

According to the theft act you'd need to satisfy several conditions. (all of them)

The person doing the 'thieving' would have had to

  1. take
  2. property
  3. belonging to another
  4. with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it
  5. dishonestly

In this case, you'd have fallen down on 5 because the security guard wouldn't have been acting dishonestly as such. Perhaps misguidedly and heavy handedly, but he would have reasonably believed he had the right to take it from you, so this would probably not have resulted in a conviction.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:45

Curlew, I wanted them not to forcibly take the wine from me. I wanted them to let me out of the pub (with the wine I had paid for), get into a taxi and go home.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:48

How can you take property belonging to another with the intention of depriving them of it - "honestly".

And I would query the legality of someone doing something illegal (i.e. theft - if it is theft) because they thought they had the right to. If something is illegal, ignorance of the law is no defence. You cannot do something illegal and get away with it because you thought you had the "right" to.

OP posts:
BillyBanter · 26/10/2013 10:49

Here, have a grip.

mylovelymonster · 26/10/2013 10:50

Perhaps you should have been aware what the time was and judged whether you had time to drink your wine before pub was closing. You asked for the bottle, the barman sold you the bottle. If the doorman is employed by the pub then they are within their rights to ensure people are not taking alcohol/glass away from the premises.
Not theft.
But then, surely it must be someone else's fault..............

Teeb · 26/10/2013 10:52

Sometimes there are two issues, the alcohol and the glass bottle. A lot of pubs won't leave you exit with a bottle because it can be used as a weapon, or most likely, will be left as litter in the street outside the pub overnight. Tbh I think you should have just popped the bottle in a bag discreetly, the security guards were carrying out their job.

eurochick · 26/10/2013 10:53

How can you take property belonging to another with the intention of depriving them of it - "honestly".

If for example you were borrowing it, would give it back and thought they would be ok with it. E.g. if a teenager usually drives her mum's car but took her dad's when her mum was out or something.

Basically, all of the elements listed above have to be made out for there to be theft.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:56

You two, I'm not about to appoint a QC or book my case in at Strasbourg. Wink

I'm slightly irritated but, more than that, the legality (or not) of the situation intrigues me.

The drink-up warning etc. is irrelevant. So, I think, is the fact that the pub does not possess an off-licence.

Doormen have no legal powers. However, based on my quote up there, did they have the right to take the wine from me so that I would not be committing the crime of being a dry area (I've learned some new jargon!) while in the possession of alcohol?

No point telling me to get a grip etc! If you're not interested in it, don't read the thread! Wink

OP posts: